Thie... Treasure Hunter ideas

[Ezikiel]

No. No. No. No. No!

When I'm in an Abyssea party (rare now because I have nothing left to merit), I will solo my own mob in about the same time it takes 6 idiots to whack away at another one. Sending me out to pull would considerably slow down kill speeds and exp rates.

In fact, I'd ask every party invite if I'd have to pull. If they said yes, I'd tell them to kick rocks and have a nice life.

Don't degrade the fact that THF has been elevated to one of the highest damage dealers after being crapped on for so long. We should not be pulling because we're already tanking. It's ignorant comments like this that make me hate other Thieves.

LOL you have got to be kidding me how about you just say no if u don't want to pull. Don't restrict other people because u dont wanna fill a job roll. Some thieves like to pull, hell some thieves specialize in Dynamis pulling for currency

[AyinDygra]

Entice would not be very useful to today's parties in Abyssea, where multiple enemies are pulled all the time. People would rather have a bunch of enemies slept and ready to be killed, so pulling one at a time is inefficient in the area you seem to be expressing concern about.

Notice the level for obtaining Entice: 10 ... this is mainly for party use, outside of Abyssea, pulling in places like Crawler's nest or anywhere else linking is an issue. It's true there are not many parties at low levels anymore, but there are still other uses for it.

Entice would also be useful when you want to solo enemies that link (anywhere in the game.)

[Ezikiel]

Entice would not be very useful to today's parties in Abyssea, where multiple enemies are pulled all the time. People would rather have a bunch of enemies slept and ready to be killed, so pulling one at a time is inefficient in the area you seem to be expressing concern about.

Notice the level for obtaining Entice: 10 ... this is mainly for party use, outside of Abyssea, pulling in places like Crawler's nest or anywhere else linking is an issue. It's true there are not many parties at low levels anymore, but there are still other uses for it.

Entice would also be useful when you want to solo enemies that link (anywhere in the game.)

i Dual box in abyssea at times and a hate free pull would be nice its not only geared towards abyssea. i love abyssea too but there are other things on this game

[Pesh]

LOL you have got to be kidding me how about you just say no if u don't want to pull. Don't restrict other people because u dont wanna fill a job roll. Some thieves like to pull, hell some thieves specialize in Dynamis pulling for currency

Yes, I do say no. Dynamis pulling is one thing.

Pulling for an exp party when a lesser DD or support job can do it is something else.

Back when our damage wasn't great, sure I could justify pulling, but in exp parties I am top of the parse and I tank about 3/4 of the time, hence my refusal to pull.

To prove a point, I've pulled hate and then ran off to pull the next mob while letting whatever we were fighting chase me. Party leaders learn pretty quick the value of a heavy DD THF; if they don't, well their alliances aren't worth staying in.

Filling a job roll, what are you a pink gear wearing THF? Get full AF3+2 and some of the best daggers you can get and you'll quickly understand why I don't pull.

[Arcon]

Yes, I do say no. Dynamis pulling is one thing.

Pulling for an exp party when a lesser DD or support job can do it is something else.

Back when our damage wasn't great, sure I could justify pulling, but in exp parties I am top of the parse and I tank about 3/4 of the time, hence my refusal to pull.

To prove a point, I've pulled hate and then ran off to pull the next mob while letting whatever we were fighting chase me. Party leaders learn pretty quick the value of a heavy DD THF; if they don't, well their alliances aren't worth staying in.

Filling a job roll, what are you a pink gear wearing THF? Get full AF3+2 and some of the best daggers you can get and you'll quickly understand why I don't pull.

Why are you even in an alliance? You can solo 80k/hr and spam amber lights for TE/KI farm as THF.

Pulling isn't for EXP only, nor is EXP a major part of the game to get so upset about. Regardless, THF is still one of the best pullers, Flee and train 10 mob, takes less than 20 seconds, I do it frequently even when I'm DDing and it still doesn't gimp my damage much, probably enhances overall alliance damage output, if you have slow pullers.

Also, I'm annoyed when I do highest damage as THF in alliance, because despite its recent boost in damage, it's still far from the best DD when other people play their jobs right. If you keep saying that, then you either don't play your other jobs to their full potential or don't know anyone else who does. WAR, DRG, MNK, NIN, PUP, even DNC can all outdo THF, maybe even a great SAM. People like to boast about critical WS for ~3k damage, when SAM can spam non-critical YGKs for over 2k.

Some THFs need to realize that they're neither the best DD nor the best tank, nor the best combination of both. Sometimes THFs do need to fill other job roles, regardless of their gear and skills. And Entice would be great for pulling in certain situations, pulling in Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar or pulling NMs in Abyssea that would normally link with other mobs in that area, there's plenty of uses for it.

And regardless of all that, even if Abyssea EXP was the only thing you could possibly pull for, how would this ability make it any worse? You think leaders will make you pull because of it? Why would they want you to pull link-free, when you should normally get a bunch of mobs to sleep/hold and then kill?

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

[Pesh]

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

In full AF3+2, you are at 23% haste, so yes you are losing 2.5ish% haste by not wearing a piece of Homam, BUT... the additional 5% activation rate on set bonus when you already Triple Attack 30-35% of the time FAR outweighs the loss of Haste. Honestly, I'd like you to show me a better TP set-up.

And if you think I'm weapon skilling in full AF3+2, then you are sorely mistaken.

THF is a job about maximization. Wearing gear that works best in WHATEVER situation you're in. My gear sets are as follows:

TP
WS
Evasion
Utsusemi
TH
MDT
Ranged Attack (Yes, for those times where you do have to throw the boomerang at something).

And for the record I do solo my exp/merits/cruor/gil. I get a BLM buddy of mine to cap my Azure lights for me (afterward he switches to a leech job), then I'll chill in Tahrongi and chest farm Chloris/Glavoid/Lacovie pops til I'm happy.

[Arcon]

In full AF3+2, you are at 23% haste, so yes you are losing 2.5ish% haste by not wearing a piece of Homam, BUT... the additional 5% activation rate on set bonus when you already Triple Attack 30-35% of the time FAR outweighs the loss of Haste. Honestly, I'd like you to show me a better TP set-up.

It's 16% haste in full AF3+2. I assume you counted Twilight Belt, although there's really no reason to use it on THF. AF3+2 head, body and legs, Homam Manopolas, Ballerines, Tiercel Necklace, Nusku's Sash. Any dagger combination between Auric, Triplus, Twilight and Rapidus works about equally well (personally I use Auric/Rapidus, may change Rapidus for Triplus when I get it). This puts you both at near cap haste and near capped Dual Wield bonus for THF (capped in both if using Auric/Rapidus).

Also, even if you were using Twilight Belt for Haste, the set bonus would in no way outweigh the loss of haste. Remember that 5% activation rate only activates on 5% of Triple Attacks. Which are (optimistically speaking) 20% of your total attacks. So that 5% activation rate gives you only a bonus in 1% of all attack rounds, less than 1 in 100. Meanwhile 2% haste will give you 23% vs 25% haste, meaning that even without any DW bonus and without any haste from spells (and the more you get, the more you will notice the effect), you'd get a bonus 2+ attack rounds in 100 rounds. Which makes this at least 2 times better than fulltiming AF3+2 (as in, 2 times the bonus damage), and remember that you only need one slot to get the additional 2% haste. Which means you still have another slot you can fill with accuracy, attack or whatever else you need.

THF is a job about maximization. Wearing gear that works best in WHATEVER situation you're in. My gear sets are as follows:

TP
WS
Evasion
Utsusemi
TH
MDT
Ranged Attack (Yes, for those times where you do have to throw the boomerang at something).

Hope you mean Ranged Accuracy. But that just what I wanted to say.. not only gear should adapt to the situation you're in, but also your playstyle. Sure, often your THF may be the best DD in the bunch, sometimes I'm sure it isn't. Sometimes a THF plays other roles. And pulling may be one of those. Even inside Abyssea on occasion, although I'm not even referring to that, there's a whole bunch of situations outside of Abyssea when this ability may come in handy, and I'm sure even more such situations will be introduced in future expansions or add-ons.

Edit: I didn't consider Atma of the Apocalypse, as I was referring to THF DD in general, not just inside Abyssea. Even with that though, it's still not better:

35%*5% = 1.75%, still less than 1 in 50 activation rate, whereas 2% haste will give you more than 1 attack round in that time. Remember this is only with 0% haste from Spells or other means, the more you get from those sources, the more it will matter. But even in solo efforts, it's slightly better than full AF3+2 with only the Haste-pieces from the set.

[Pesh]

It's 16% haste in full AF3+2. I assume you counted Twilight Belt, although there's really no reason to use it on THF. AF3+2 head, body and legs, Homam Manopolas, Ballerines, Tiercel Necklace, Nusku's Sash. Any dagger combination between Auric, Triplus, Twilight and Rapidus works about equally well (personally I use Auric/Rapidus, may change Rapidus for Triplus when I get it).

Auric/Rapidus? Are you nuts? It isn't always about fast attacks. You need to justify the amount of damage you do per swing in relation to the TP you feed to the mob.

Secondly, Homam Manopolas? AF3+2 add 8 STR, 8 DEX, 12 Accuracy, 16 Attack... THF has always been cursed with a low attack rating, so its nice to have a piece of gear that gives us a pretty substantial boost.

The gear set-up you've listed sounds like you're focusing more on the fast attacks and neglecting the amount of damage you're dealing per attack.

Secondly, stacking DW gear lowers your TP gain per swing, so yes while you attack faster, you're still requiring more swings to get to 100.

Personally, I'd rather swing a tiny bit slower, hit harder and do massive WS damage compared to what sounds like a weaker set-up. Besides, the 31% TA and 20% DA rate makes up for the loss of 2.5% haste.

[Arcon]

Auric/Rapidus? Are you nuts? It isn't always about fast attacks. You need to justify the amount of damage you do per swing in relation to the TP you feed to the mob.

Auric/Rapidus is the fastest TP gain combination for THF (bar multihit weapons). With the set I posted above, it takes less than 15 seconds to get to 100% TP (without any supporters), which is 15% faster than Twilight/Triplus combination. Also you do most hits in that time (23 hits). And overall, you feed the mob least TP (because of the Subtle Blow on Auric for the most part), a total of 98.8% TP (in the time it takes me to get to 100% TP). Your proposed set deals 129.8% TP to the mob in the time it takes you to get to 100% TP, which is over 30% worse than mine.

Secondly, Homam Manopolas? AF3+2 add 8 STR, 8 DEX, 12 Accuracy, 16 Attack... THF has always been cursed with a low attack rating, so its nice to have a piece of gear that gives us a pretty substantial boost.

The gear set-up you've listed sounds like you're focusing more on the fast attacks and neglecting the amount of damage you're dealing per attack.

Yes, that's exactly what I do. Attack bonus is not nearly as important for THF as for other jobs, and even other jobs would profit from more haste over attack. People spend millions and devote months of farming and playing to get 1% or 2% Haste for a reason, because if you're not at cap, it is easily the best status attribute to push.

Secondly, stacking DW gear lowers your TP gain per swing, so yes while you attack faster, you're still requiring more swings to get to 100.

Yes, but with the lower delay it actually takes less time to get to 100% TP. Oddly enough, with Twilight/Triplus dagger, the 5% difference in Dual Wield from Nusku's Sash does not reduce your TP gain (4.49 TP/hit vs. 4.41 TP/hit, so rounded down both give 4.4 TP/hit), meaning you just attack faster, without sacrificing your TP gain. To prove a point though, let's look at the jump from 15% Dual Wield to 20% Dual Wield, which is more interesting. Assuming 24% Haste, Auric Dagger, Triplus Dagger, and 6 Store TP (from Rajas/Brutal) here's the stats from http://www.ffxiut.com/calc (if you wanna see for yourself).

20% Dual Wield:
Delay: 0.78 s
TP return: 4.5 TP/hit
x-Hit: 23 hits (22.2)
Time to 100% TP: 17.9 s
Enemy TP gain: 4.3 TP/hit
Total enemy TP: 98.8 TP

15% Dual Wield:
Delay: 0.85 s
TP return: 4.6 TP/hit
x-Hit: 22 hits (21.7)
Time to 100% TP: 18.7 s
Enemy TP gain: 4.8 TP/hit
Total enemy TP: 105.6 TP

Meaning not only do you get to 100% TP in less time, but also deal more damage in this shorter time because you're doing an additional hit. If you think the additional 16 Attack, which is less than 4% increase in your total Attack (and notice that a 4% increase in Attack does not mean a 4% increase in damage), during the melee phase makes up for a flat ~5% damage increase (not just melee, since you get to WS more often too), while also feeding less TP to the enemy (and have higher evasion too), then by all means, believe it. The math is there, make of it whatever you want.

Personally, I'd rather swing a tiny bit slower, hit harder and do massive WS damage compared to what sounds like a weaker set-up. Besides, the 31% TA and 20% DA rate makes up for the loss of 2.5% haste.

What does WS damage have to do with this? And I also have 31% TA and 11% DA (how the hell do you get 20%? There isn't that much DA gear for THF in the entire game), the only loss is 2% DA from Twilight Belt, from 13% to 11%.

I don't care much what it sounds like, the math is solid. You can play whichever way you want, the difference is marginal in the end, but don't talk down on others for their gear or playstyle.

Edit: Added values for enemy TP gain to the above example. There you can see that the latter would feed more TP to an enemey, give it 100% TP before you get that much. Without Auric Dagger the difference would be even higher.

[Karbuncle]

Also, if you wanna do best damage, you do not want full AF3+2.

Mmmm, I think you've heard wrong :\, Even the best math i found were either in favor of AF3+2 or Too close to be able to tell which might be better.

Now, Inside Abyssea (only, Inside Abyssea, And thats with Atma of the apoc, Full Triple Attack Merits, Eponas/Triplus Dagger so you have a Triple Attack rate of about 34%) Full AF3+2 Beats out other builds. (In my opinion, and in some math)

You can Also reach up to 24% Haste with this, 25% if you wanna get gimpy on your weapons, With that build you're better off with the 24% Haste (Full +2, Twilight Belt, Tiercal Necklace). This is making you lose 1.?% of Haste, But you also gain nearly 2x Activation rate for Set bonus. (As far as all of my tests show, 4/5+2 gives only 3% Act. rate, where as 5/5 Gives about 6%, (largest variations were 5.3% and 7.1%) Doubling your odds or more).

Outside of Abyssea, Entirely different story, As your Triple Attack rate significantly lowers (15% lower because of Apoc Loss).

So really its a matter of Opinion, i for one take the idea of Full+2 and hit 24% haste and I'm okay with that. Others might not. But to reiterate, most math i see on the subject (There was a thread on FFXIAH, You'd have to look it up...) It was either in favor of +2 or closer to even where either set would get the job done.

Of course you would want to put on Full-haste for recasting shadows and such, No question. and (Dur) normal SA/TA/etc Set swaps.