Thie... Treasure Hunter ideas

[Karbuncle]

Hmmm, From your stand point, What do you feel the best THF Set would be then for general Melee? It won't get me out of 24% Haste and 5/5+2 inside of Abyssea, but outside I'm still in debate on the best combo.

You can link me to a FFXIAH Item Set.

[Arcon]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/205523

1st option:
This set has 30% Dual Wield (40% with /NIN), 24% Haste.

2nd option:
Full AF3+2 with Twilight Belt would have 25% Dual Wield (35% with /NIN), 24% Haste.

3 AF3+2 pieces vs. 5 AF3+2 pieces. Since it hasn't been measured enough to determine the exact proc rate, we'll just go with 5% difference between those two (although current testing suggests it to be even lower). So assuming 5% with 3/5, 10% with 5/5.

Now with option 1, we would have (1-0.4)*(1-0.24) = 45.6% delay. Option 2 would be at (1-0.35)*(1-0.24) = 49.4% delay. Meaning, in 100 attacks option 1 would get 8 extra attacks in.

Assuming a 5% set activation rate for option 1, that would mean 35%*5% = 1.75% activation rate. Set 2 on the other hand would have 3.5% activation rate. When the effect activates, the second and third hit are tripled, offhand swing is swallowed, although I won't count that for now. That means a ~133% damage increase per activation (100% if you count the missing offhand swing).

So to compare..

1st option:
108 hits with 1.75% activation rate, so would activate on 1.89 hits, meaning..
Hits = (108-1.89) + (1.89*2.33) = 108 + 1.89*2.33 = 110.5

2nd option:
100 hits with 3.5% activation rate, so would activate on 3.5 hits, meaning..
Hits = (100-3.5) + (3.5*2.33) = 100 + 3.5*1.33 = 104.7

Which means in the same time, option 1 would give 5.5% more hits. Now remember, this is without consideration for the missing offhand hit, for the fact that it's quite probably a far lower activation rate than suggested here and for any kind of other Haste you get from spells or Haste Samba, which would make the difference in Dual Wield even stronger. Daggers don't matter for this, since all of these effects are applied to the number of hits, so it will scale to whichever weapon you use.

[Karbuncle]

Actually, All 3 Hits are "Tripled' not the second and third hit (That information is massively outdated)

I know it won't change the math much, But all 3 Hits of the Triple Attack do Triple Damage.

edit: Are you taking into account the adjusted proc rate of the Set bonus due to having 2 weapons (Dual wield) In which Triple attack can proc? Set Bonus can Proc Main or Off hand. That Essentially Doubles its possible activation rate yes :O?

[Arcon]

Actually, All 3 Hits are "Tripled' not the second and third hit (That information is massively outdated)

I know it won't change the math much, But all 3 Hits of the Triple Attack do Triple Damage.

Um... I didn't actually look stuff up, that was just my observation. I've seen it proc a lot so far and never seen three hits with high damage, always only two. Does it hide the third hit? I know I read somewhere it's only 2/3 hits, now I looked on wiki people saying 3/3 hits. I've never seen this happen before myself. Is that related to the missing offhand hit?

edit: Are you taking into account the adjusted proc rate of the Set bonus due to having 2 weapons (Dual wield) In which Triple attack can proc? Set Bonus can Proc Main or Off hand. That Essentially Doubles its possible activation rate yes :O?

It doesn't matter, it's still only 35% activation rate. Whether looking at each hand, or combined, only thing that matters is the number of total hits.

Assuming 100 total hits (single): 35%*100hits = 35hits
Assuming 50 hits with each hand: 35%*50hits + 35%*50hits = 35%*100hits = 35hits

So the same number of hits are candidates for the Triple Attack augment.

I still wanna recalculate with 3/3 hit activation (300% damage, so 200% bonus):

1st option:
108hits + 1.89hits*200% = 111.8hits

2nd option:
100hits + 3.5hits*200% = 107hits

So only 4.8% better instead of 5.5%, and still not accounting for any haste and other stuff, that would all count towards the 1st option without full AF3+2.

[Laphine]

oh i just posted my opinion over Nusku's sash in a ffxiah thread lol. I'm starting to favor it as well, reason being that the af bonus can't beat the 8% gain from extra 5 dw. Here it is

Your math isn't complete though Arcon, the numbers are actually smaller. You also need to factor that the af bonus won't happen on ws, so you need to multiply the gain by the dps % of our damage(60% to dps 40% to ws usually). I've mathed this on alla some time ago.

The numbers i used were 5% proc with 5/5 af and 3% proc with 4/5, and also 44% triple and a fictional 27% triple.

Even tho the proc rate from 5/5 is bigger, we would need to use tiercel neck to keep up with haste instead of using an attack piece. But attack is still a very big deal to thf. So coupling the boost from love torque (or agasaya) + capped haste with the smaller 4 pieces proc rate will beat the big 5 af pieces boost. If only our af feet actually added something to increase our damage...well, we wouldn't have much reason not to go 5/5 af lol. But even so, if it was something like attack (that people usually over look) it would be well worth it to use 5/5 af. Of course, this is all taking those proc rates to the af boost.

But anyway, this is a nusku's discussion. And the gain from nusku's sash alone will beat the gain from going 4/5 af instead of 5/5. But we do have to sacrifice much to put nusku's to good use. Naming: our af hands. This is a really heavy piece on our arsenal, specially if we need that acc. If we happen to need the str to increase fstr...those hands achieve godhood... lol.

So yeah, i'll go after nusku's and put it to use against normal mobs and weak nms. But against a high tier nm, 4/5 af gogogo!

[Arcon]

I used big numbers specifically to give a bigger buffer, to tolerate a bigger margin of error. I also mentioned that in reality the numbers are even lower, which gives even less reason to use 5/5 AF3+2. Even 4/5 is overdoing it, the set I posted above is quite possibly the best THF melee set in the game. It's the reason why Tiercel Necklace skyrocketed in price, 'cause demand is higher than ever and you can't really obtain it anymore. And WS damage would be done in a different set anyway, since you can disregard Haste and Dual Wield completely for it, so only the melee part is relevant to look at and that was the only part I was considering for the total damage comparison. I tried to keep it as objective as possible, but that doesn't extend to WS, since they depend on the circumstances for the most part. My melee/WS ratio can range anywhere from 1 to infinity.

Also, this isn't really a Nusku's Sash discussion either, we did get quite off-topic with this.. which is why I used size 1 font to say that full AF3+2 isn't really the best melee set. I wouldn't mind discussing this more though, in it's seperate thread.

[Karbuncle]

Um... I didn't actually look stuff up, that was just my observation. I've seen it proc a lot so far and never seen three hits with high damage, always only two. Does it hide the third hit? I know I read somewhere it's only 2/3 hits, now I looked on wiki people saying 3/3 hits. I've never seen this happen before myself. Is that related to the missing offhand hit?

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/54078 <<

Thats an Image of me procing THF Set Bonus on Sneak attack. So its proof 3/3, at least?

As far as Hiding third hit no. You may have just not been paying attention, Or Theres also the possibility that you need a certain number of pieces for it to work on all 3?

it would be interesting to test if you need a certain number of Pieces equipped for the Bonus to apply to all 3 hits.

Cause i DO recall that on the very first test ever done (I think with only 2/5 pieces) the picture clearly showed 2/3 Hits Proccing Set Bonus. So it could very well have just been a glitch, Or perhaps you do need more than a certain number of pieces.

Either Way, I don't think it'd favor 5/5 Enough to be worth redoing the math, As I don't think it would edge out a 4/5 Set. I'll still continue gimping myself and keep on my 5/5+2 and 24% Haste set up :|, But likely keep it to myself. I enjoy it, But I Know its mathematically futile.

[Laphine]

I only checked the last few posts before replying. The discussion at hand was about 4/5 af vs 5/5 vs mix match (nusku's). Sure it was't the objective of this thread, but you know, discussions evolve. As long as they don't go towards something negative (which would probably need the hands of moderators), it's all good, no? And this is not to say this topic wouldn't benefit with its own thread. Of course it would.

Anyway, if you are going to compare melee damage increase with melee damage increase, ok. But to compare the gain from something that only affects our melee damage (af bonus), with something that affects our whole damage (haste), you need extract from the melee damage increase its compromise to our overall damage. To illustrate:

Taking a 60% melee 40% ws split, if we do 600 melee damage we will do 400 ws damage. Now if we boost only our melee damage by 10%, making it 660 damage, it will provide an increase of (660+400)/(600+400) to our whole damage. 6% instead of 10%. Haste acts on our whole damage, an increase of 10% from haste would affect the 1000 damage, making it 1100.

So to effectivelly compare the af bonus increase with haste, which is a real trade-off by using 5/5 af, we need to factor this concept.

edit: @ Karb
it might have killed the mob before the 3rd proc? lol I wouldn't doubt. A full 3 hit proc can easily damage 50% of a normal mob hp.

[Corres]

one total crazy and idiotic idea:
when in an alliance with a thf and a ranger the thf increases the treasure hunter effect on the mob. TH level does not matter.

when THF has dealt a SA or TA and TH increased the rng would do Bounty shot and it would set the current TH-level (i.e. th-lvl-9) as a new base lvl. so when the Thief does SA and TA again the THF can increase the TH a lot more.

[Kasandaro]

one total crazy and idiotic idea:
when in an alliance with a thf and a ranger the thf increases the treasure hunter effect on the mob. TH level does not matter.

when THF has dealt a SA or TA and TH increased the rng would do Bounty shot and it would set the current TH-level (i.e. th-lvl-9) as a new base lvl. so when the Thief does SA and TA again the THF can increase the TH a lot more.

Except that if the THF lands a TH higher than II, iirc, Bounty Shot "has no effect." Wish it worked, though.