Battle Balance Adjustment: TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill

[cidbahamut]

Edit (to keep on topic): And devs, if you read this, listen to what every COR and non-COR has said about Save TP: put in a cap!

Update notes:
* changing how Save TP works
* Save TP now caps at X
* trollface.jpg

[Yinnyth]

Let me list all the reasons I think this change sucks:

1. Miser's roll becomes worthless except in situations where the cor and all the DDs have other sources of save-TP which are greater than miser's roll to begin with (none of those situations currently exist ingame).

2. Voidwrought's atmacite, which most avid voidwatchers have already spent at least half a million cruor into, becomes worthless unless you currently have miser's roll on. If you have miser's roll on, shame on your corsair.

3. If enough save-TP gear, or a save-TP song, or another save-TP atmacite are added to the game, we run into the same problem again: ridiculous TP return on WSs.

4. Save-TP and store-TP will no longer stack, so it will be best to gear towards either one or the other.

5. Hagakure's save-TP effect becomes worthless and it would only be used for its TP bonus effect (addressed by the devs).

So why haven't the other 4 problems been addressed or even acknowleged? My best guess is that the Japanese players don't view these things as problems at all, but since I can't read Japanese, I can't say for certain. (I'm not saying this with disdain for Japanese players- merely acknowleging that there are more JP players than NA and as such, the devs are likely to overlook a complaint if only NA players are making it.)

[Kristal]

So why haven't the other 4 problems been addressed or even acknowleged?

Because they might not be problems?

With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin
* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?)


And what if SE decides that Save TP also guards against Absorb TP and TP Reset effects such as Feather Tickle? (Weapon swap TP loss might go a bit too far.) Maybe worth checking it out on the test server, and offer it to SE as a suggestion?

[Neisan_Quetz]

... /Facepalm...

[Mirabelle]

With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin
* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?)

None of these situations occur frequently enough to necessitate a full time roll or a full time atmacite.

Yinnyth points remain totally valid.

Since they told us what the save TP change will do, I can't see how testing it out on the test server will be of any value. We know what the save TP mechanic will be. We know Save TP as a passive trait would help you in certain situations like missing WS's. But as a JA on SAM and an Active roll for COR or an infused atmacite, its going to be superceded in effect by any number of other options that give persistent and more frequent benefits.

[Yinnyth]

With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin

I cut out the last 2 scenarios you outlined because they don't exist ingame yet (if ever), so they're not worth arguing for or against.

PD, invinc, and immunity, you really shouldn't be WSing into anyways, but on the offchance you get screwed by bad timing, you're still gonna spend 30 or more seconds not building TP regardless of whether or not your WS gave you TP, so the ~18 TP you get back (estimated save-TP on an average miser's roll... may vary depending on your corsair's luck/stupidity) would be nothing compared to the ~30 TP that tactician's roll would get you (estimating 3/tick on average) during the 30 seconds of PD/invinc.

Shadows? Yeah, I suppose that VW beetle can be annoying with shadows. He's also annoying with evasion, so building TP on him in the first place is just a pain in the ass. If you're trying to get melees to proc him, better off with rng and tactician's rolls.

Whiffing the WS? If this problem is common to the point where save-TP becomes a useful fallback, you're better off with rng roll. Because not only does RNG roll increase your chances of getting full TP after a WS, but it also increases the chances of your WS actually doing damage, which miser's roll does not do.

[Kristal]

I cut out the last 2 scenarios you outlined because they don't exist ingame yet (if ever), so they're not worth arguing for or against.

Oh, I'm sorry.. I wasn't aware Yurin:Ichi, Penance and Phorcys Schuhs were not in the game yet. Or are they???
And it would be unthinkable for SE to give different levels of ETA to existing/future NMs, would it...

And yes, the other situations are not going to be a factor for every WS you do. Low levels of Save TP will be worthless as they will be below average TP return at all times. But that goes for a lot of stats.

Save TP is a relatively new effect that was implemented poorly, but people have grown addicted to it.
No matter how it's going to be changed, people are going to have to go cold turkey. COR will lose it's glamour time spotlight, and can go play checkers with the RDM again.

[SpankWustler]

* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin

If you're using weaponskills under these situations often, I feel bad for you son, you have 99 problems but Save TP's function ain't one. Not worth considering.

The first hit should miss a around 5% of the time on most content and Hunter's Roll would be a better choice if it's occurring more often. The other situations occur even more rarely than that.

* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?

These would be worth considering if they existed for enemies. However, they don't. I'm not sure that they never will, but it seems silly to assume any meaningful number of new monsters are going to get anything that isn't a bunch of HP, an AoE or two, and maybe - just maybe - an annoying Silence or Bio aura.

Implementing something poorly isn't a good reason to change it poorly as well. I realize there are some Development Bros who enjoy doing things poorly and their feelings matter too, so the change will probably pass as-is, but I might as well complain anyway.

[Mirabelle]

Implementing something poorly isn't a good reason to change it poorly as well. I realize there are some Development Bros who enjoy doing things poorly and their feelings matter too, so the change will probably pass as-is, but I might as well complain anyway.

Yes, I wonder sometimes if it isn't just plain old human pride that leads to these decisions. SE suggests one approach, the community universally recommends another, and SE just goes all pig-headed about it. We've got 18 pages of discussion here where everyone says, yes Save TP was broken and a cap would be a good fix. Yet at no time has anyone from the community team addressed why a cap isn't being considered, why they are sticking with their guns to make Miser's roll useless, etc.

Even a simple word, to say, "we are doing it this way since more Save TP gear will be added in the future", would be welcome.

But I suspect they are just sitting there saying, "Well, really what the players were saying is right, but how do we change it and make it look like we weren't idiots in the first place?"

[Jomen]

All COR's are asking is to turn Save TP into a capped trait. 50TP returned makes it still powerful and doesn't make it totally useless. And it nerfs it to a level where all here pretty much agree its reasonable as far as balance.

I completely agree, I also have COR leveled, it's one of my lesser used jobs because I hate being forced to do one thing in battle since I don't have an empy gun. However, if I did whip it out, I would want it to make a big impact. I think you're on the right track of having it with a higher cap. Or at least stack on top of the lolbalanced save tp they are implementing.

I'm not sure why you want to interpret all these posts as people saying Hagakure shouldn't be adjusted. A few folks definitely are, for some weird reason, but I don't think people venting some bile via one-liners on the internet matters that much.

Lol, basically, the first couple of pages are QQs about hagakure and SAM getting too much. That's why I mentioned the "things won't change" portion of my post. Sams are gonna get tp faster than you period. That's just the way the world works. That said, you made a lot more valid points then this in your post. I am confused even now as to how conserve tp actually affects anything. Does it work along side save tp to reduce the amount even more? Is it a percentage chance to conserve? Is it useful at all? I weapon skill in conserve tp shoes and I don't personally see a huge tp difference. That said, I haven't really been playing much lately :/ Maybe I'll come back when Legion or "Super VoidWatch III:revenge of the logs" (turbo edition) is announced.