Where is my elemental affinity pieces?

[saevel]

Enspells are a component as melee damage just like crits are and should be treated as such. Just because kparser lists it as "other" doesn't make it a separate damage source. If you miss a melee hit then you've missed your enspell, if you proc a DA / TA then you also proc additional enspells on those hits, and the faster you hit the faster your enspell procs.

My melee DPS went up 24% from enspells for a total damage increase of 12.8%. This is vs VT~IT mobs @633 attack with Dia III (744 pseudo attack) with CDC and ODD. Pretty much the best melee setup you can get nowadays. On someone doing DB or Req spam, or with lessor attack gear / food, or vs a monster with higher defense / pdt, enspells will be a bigger component. As an example, in Dyna vs statues, Enspells easily double my melee damage due to their -PDT effect. Vs things like Fungars and Leaches it's a 30~33% increase in melee DPS due to those monsters higher defense.

Lesson from this don't ignore enspells, build a 500 enhancing magic set. It doesn't help that enspells don't show up properly on parsers, they'll always been distributed amongst everyone hitting the monster. Also if your blink or change gear then the enspell damage isn't recorded for those swings.

[Mageoholic]

You wanted to prove Saevel wrong. That's fine. I think his entire post was meaningless hogwash too.

I don't need to prove him wrong, anyone here should know that Berserk and Enspell are not in the same league. Enspells are absent on nearly a third of damage output. Any bloke can prove him wrong. However on average Adding 5.5ATK per enspell damage will result in the same net increase to damage. In this case on average (it means middle of the road, not constant.) Berserk will push your cratio higher than required to do this.

In his specific case he would need to increase his attack by about 15% (17% from Berserk done Warcry on top) to match benefit of enspells (12.8% DMG). This will match his enspell damage contribution, including increased WS damage. ON AVERAGE.

Can it be more or less than 15% sure it can, but in the wonderful world of averages it will always approach a similar amount. You can tout the high/low shtick as much as you want. Average damage is the only thing that matters, especially from a job that is always going to be seeing a wide varyation in attack ratios. Unlike some of the big boys RDM will fluctuate on every mob pulled....which is why you calculate shit with averages.

Enspells damage was 12.8%, to get the same increase with attack you would need to raise a 50 damage weapon to 56.4, which is like going from 650ATK to about 750ATK.

If you want to play internet cop, at least understand how damage calculations are used, and what the term average means.

[Greatguardian]

I don't need to prove him wrong, anyone here should know that Berserk and Enspell are not in the same league. Enspells are absent on nearly a third of damage output. Any bloke can prove him wrong. However on average Adding 5.5ATK per enspell damage will result in the same net increase to damage. In this case on average (it means middle of the road, not constant.) Berserk will push your cratio higher than required to do this.

In his specific case he would need to increase his attack by about 15% (17% from Berserk done Warcry on top) to match benefit of enspells (12.8% DMG). This will match his enspell damage contribution, including increased WS damage. ON AVERAGE.

Can it be more or less than 15% sure it can, but in the wonderful world of averages it will always approach a similar amount. You can tout the high/low shtick as much as you want. Average damage is the only thing that matters, especially from a job that is always going to be seeing a wide varyation in attack ratios. Unlike some of the big boys RDM will fluctuate on every mob pulled....which is why you calculate shit with averages.

Enspells damage was 12.8%, to get the same increase with attack you would need to raise a 50 damage weapon to 56.4, which is like going from 650ATK to about 750ATK.

If you want to play internet cop, at least understand how damage calculations are used, and what the term average means.

Your averages imply people attacking similar targets with similar gear with similar buffs in order for them to be remotely approaching an equality. That is not how averages work. That is taking an "average" case, solving for that case, and then claiming that your solution is the average solution. It is not. It is simply the static solution for the average case, which is entirely different.

Going from 650 Attack to 750 Attack? Those numbers are so god damned meaningless, do you even realize it? Changing attack means absolutely nothing in a vacuum. The important number is a change in cRatio. I am telling you straight up that you cannot equate %-damage increase to static number Attack increases because static number Attack increases do not correlate to %-cRatio increases.

You are making far too many assumptions about your target and your party. This is, of course, the fatal flaw of taking damage calculations from a job whose melee damage roles are almost never used. However, anyone with experience predicting damage increases on DD jobs that, you know, actually get used in various situations will know right away that shit is way more situational than you're allowing for.

Enspells are a static damage/hit increase. The %-viability of Enspells are dependent on the damage/hit you're getting in any particular situation. Hit for 0 damage? Enspells are a BAJILLION INFINITY TIMES A GOOGLEPLEX increase in damage. Hit for 2,100 damage per hit? Enspells are a 1% increase in damage. And no, contrary to what you or Saevel may try to imply, there is no "static" or "average" damage per hit that you can generalize to all situations.

In case you haven't absorbed it yet, the problem with both of your case studies is generalization. Finding some solution for X-gear and X-monster works for X-gear and X-monster. We know exactly how potent Enspells are if you're a Red Mage with 633 attack fighting IT crawlers in The Boyahda Tree. The problem, though, is that means jack shit to anyone fighting anything else with any other gear. You can't just plug those numbers in elsewhere and say it's "close enough".

Equivalencies drawn between Enspells and Attack can only be expressed in terms of a function with a great deal of variables, and any static equivalency has to be solved for on a case-by-case basis as you fill those variables in. Pretending that you can just throw in some static numbers and apply it to everything or the "average" thing is intellectually dishonest. Maybe you're both used to doing math on the sidelines against exp-level targets with 0 buffs because no one "lets" you fight anything else, but those of us who hit things with plenty of jobs on a regular basis know just how much any of those variables can change.

[Mageoholic]

But... how bout that elemental affinity eh.

[Mageoholic]

Your averages imply people attacking similar targets with similar gear with similar buffs in order for them to be remotely approaching an equality.

You are being retarded. If you are going to fight X mob a bunch of times (in this particular case not likely), but in the case of say Legion NM's or what not, eventually you will find an average of your damage. Hell you can accomplish this in one fight, technically (granted the next it may change.) Parsers do this for you so you do not have to.

Enspells are a static damage/hit increase. The %-viability of Enspells are dependent on the damage/hit you're getting in any particular situation. Hit for 0 damage? Enspells are a BAJILLION INFINITY TIMES A GOOGLEPLEX increase in damage.

You try and pass enspells off as a static increase, I can tell you right now Enspells are not a static increase, they are as variable as ATK is. Saevel gave us his average Enspell damage (29.something). Enspells are checked against MDB, Resistance, and MDT. They can fluctuate wildly. Or even when capped have a 5% randomizer that can make them 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 damage. They are not a slap on static increase to damage at all.

The only benefit a RDM gets is that it can cap the MACC on them a lot easier (mostly through skill) then it can with ATK.

Everything in this game can be compared to something else. Enspells Damage to Haste damage increase, ATK vs ACC, ATK vs Haste, and even Enspell vs Attack. The only thing you need is variables.

Everything is based on averages, because everything in this game caps at less than 100%, your ATK will always have a random multiplier, even at a capped Cratio, just as your Enspells have a random multiplier with capped MACC.

If you believe that anything in this game is cut and dry you are fooling your self, It is how we figured out the average Skill/INT required to floor resist rates on Sky NM's. Repetition of the same content inevitably leads to more accurate averages, and thus more precise gearing options. When you find the variables from one target in a specific level range you can then apply the same variables to other targets in that level range. Will it be an exact replica of the data, no, but it is a solid starting point.

Which is why I can say with confidence a mob that is 6-7 levels higher will require 110 or so ATK to make up for the damages from enspells, this value has been consistent since CoP. Granted some targets (Crabs for example) may require more due to the nature of the job (PLD), and the traits and stats that go with it. But these are marginal changes at best and can be determined rather quickly through a few parses.

You lecture about learning game functions then you should take your own advice, the only way to understand gearing options is through a comparative study, which often comes down to comparing average (your most consistent) damage output (or healing out put, or potency output) to determine what fits best where.

Want to know what the function to determine Enspells and ATK is.

AVG Enspell damage = X% of Total Damage
AVG Weapon damage = Y% of Total Damage
AVG ATK Required by Cratio for X% AVG Weapon Damage Increase

Done that is all you need. Need to raise your Cratio by 25% to match X then you find out what the ATK value needed to match that is. Presto you have now determined the amount of ATK required to match your Average Enspell damage.

Not rocket science. Can do it in a single parse, but as I said becomes more accurate with the more parses you do. It is quite simple really, if you know anything about how damage is actually calculated. Or stats in general.

[Greatguardian]

Holy fucking shit, parsing. What is with your hardon for parsing? Parsing collects raw data, it doesn't anaylze data or provide any sort of conclusions for you one way or another. The conclusions we have right now were reached from an aggregate of hundreds, even thousands of hours of parses. A single parse is not going to mean jack shit in the face of that much data. You can predict damage and damage increases with extremely high accuracy without going out and whacking moles for an hour.

All your findings have bearing on is shitty little EXP mobs with easily generalized job/race traits that don't emphasize defense. Congratulations, you have found a meaningless correlation. Apply that to NMs? To monsters with higher defense? Lower defense? Apply that to someone using a different sword? Different gear? Someone with different fSTR levels? Can't do it. You straight up can't generalize such a narrow correlation.

I haven't seen jack shit but a bunch of parse nonsense from either of you, let alone any real math, so here's some for you:

Average Enspell damage with 500 skill = [30 * (Macc) + 15 * (1-Macc/4) + 7 * (1-Macc/4) + 3 * (1-Macc/4) + 1 * (1-Macc/4) ] * Aggregate Monster MDT

Average damage per hit = Weapon damage * (average crit pDif * Crit rate * Crit damage + average non-crit pDif * [1 - crit rate])

Average Non-crit pDif = {
if 0 ≤ cRatio < 0.3 → pDIF = 1.0585 × cRatio ^ 2 + 0.3391 × cRatio + 0.0239
if 0.3 ≤ cRatio < 1.3 → pDIF = -0.12311 + cRatio × 1.129179
if 1.3 ≤ cRatio < 1.5 → pDIF = 0.7486 × cRatio ^ 2 - 1.5814 × cRatio + 2.1349
if 1.5 ≤ cRatio → pDIF = 1.129573 × cRatio - 0.24878 }

Average crit pDif = {
if 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.63 → pDIF = 0.948491 + cRatio × 1.045043
if 1.63 ≤ cRatio → pDIF = -0.7153 * cRatio ^ 2 + 3.4303 × cRatio - 1.0385 }

Average increase in damage from Enspells = (Average Enspell damage + Average Damage per hit) / Average Damage per hit

Average increase in damage from Enspells = ([30 * (Macc) + 15 * (1-Macc/4) + 7 * (1-Macc/4) + 3 * (1-Macc/4) + 1 * (1-Macc/4) ] * Monster MDT + [Weapon Damage+fStr * ( {
if 0 ≤ cRatio < 0.3 → pDIF = 1.0585 × cRatio ^ 2 + 0.3391 × cRatio + 0.0239
if 0.3 ≤ cRatio < 1.3 → pDIF = -0.12311 + cRatio × 1.129179
if 1.3 ≤ cRatio < 1.5 → pDIF = 0.7486 × cRatio ^ 2 - 1.5814 × cRatio + 2.1349
if 1.5 ≤ cRatio → pDIF = 1.129573 × cRatio - 0.24878 } ] * {1- crit rate} + Crit rate * Crit damage * {
if 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.63 → pDIF = 0.948491 + cRatio × 1.045043
if 1.63 ≤ cRatio → pDIF = -0.7153 * cRatio ^ 2 + 3.4303 × cRatio - 1.0385 }) /
[Weapon Damage+fStr * ( {
if 0 ≤ cRatio < 0.3 → pDIF = 1.0585 × cRatio ^ 2 + 0.3391 × cRatio + 0.0239
if 0.3 ≤ cRatio < 1.3 → pDIF = -0.12311 + cRatio × 1.129179
if 1.3 ≤ cRatio < 1.5 → pDIF = 0.7486 × cRatio ^ 2 - 1.5814 × cRatio + 2.1349
if 1.5 ≤ cRatio → pDIF = 1.129573 × cRatio - 0.24878 } * {1-crit rate} + Crit rate * Crit damage * {if 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.63 → pDIF = 0.948491 + cRatio × 1.045043
if 1.63 ≤ cRatio → pDIF = -0.7153 * cRatio ^ 2 + 3.4303 × cRatio - 1.0385 } ) ]

ENSPELLS ARE TOTALLY EQUIVALENT TO EXACTLY 110 ATTACK THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME D:

EDIT: SORRY, I FORGOT CRITICALS LOL LET ME FIX IT

EDIT 2: OKAY FIXED

EDIT 3: BTW cRATIO NEVER INCREASES THE DAMAGE VALUE OF YOUR WEAPON. JUST SAYING.

[ManaKing]

Geez guys, will you get your pro-melee discussions out of my mage discussions.

/end joke

You guys done yet? I'm sure you both mastered debate, just like the rest of the people on the internet. Honestly, I really hope everyone has a firm grasp on enspells, because we are all posting on RDM forums.

Elemental Affinity was the topic? It increases all damage related to the particular Element. This includes Spell damage, Enspell Damage, Spikes Damage, and Elemental Weapon Skill Damage. RDM has decent coverage in these areas and it would be an area that we could improve on across the board if we had access to Elemental Affinity outside of Aby.

[Greatguardian]

Honestly, I really hope everyone has a firm grasp on enspells, because we are all posting on RDM forums.

You can say that, but I wonder how many people on these forums even understand what I posted let alone why it works. And all that is is a formula for the average %-damage increase that Enspells give you. Not exactly super complicated shit. I mean, all the RDMs here understand how Enspells work right?

On topic? It'd be coolz to get real Affinity boosting spells. That seems more up Scholar's alley tbh, but it'd be nice nonetheless.

[saevel]

Geez guys, will you get your pro-melee discussions out of my mage discussions.

/end joke

You guys done yet? I'm sure you both mastered debate, just like the rest of the people on the internet. Honestly, I really hope everyone has a firm grasp on enspells, because we are all posting on RDM forums.

Elemental Affinity was the topic? It increases all damage related to the particular Element. This includes Spell damage, Enspell Damage, Spikes Damage, and Elemental Weapon Skill Damage. RDM has decent coverage in these areas and it would be an area that we could improve on across the board if we had access to Elemental Affinity outside of Aby.

I would love something like this. Currently using something that's kinda similar, the Magic Acc +8 chakram. My only concern is that it would create yet another 8 items we'd have to carry around.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Could hope for just oooooone more trial that grants said elemental affinity to elemental path magian weapons for the matching element. Course it would have to be balanced, i mean people like me dualing str shamshirs would make off like a bandit with fire spells. But thats kinda what people are looking at and would like, a blu with a dex shamshir getting a bonus affinity with say charged whisker for example, and while that rdm would be limited in element spells it could cast at max potency, it could just manage to swap out its non weapon slot gear to MAB gear and fire off a quick matching element nuke or two. Not that this idea is new by any means but would be fun, though unbalanced as a lot of jobs cant make use of this as well as we can (WAR, MNK, WHM(Kinda) THF, PLD(Kinda) BST, BRD, SAM, DRG, COR? PUP, DNC?)