Enmity

[Zagen]

This argument is silly. You act as if Paladins are weaklings and can't dish out healthy melee damage on their own. They can, especially if well-geared. It's not a comparison between a paladin's cures and a DD's offense, it's a comparison between a Paladin's offense + cures and a DD's offense.

But that aside, all of this really doesn't matter. Monks should be able to tank, as should warriors. Paladins can tank also. They are all tanks. Paladins have cures. Monks and warriors have higher offense. They all tank in their own way. I don't see the problem here.

How is the argument that a DD can cap/recap hate faster than a PLD who is DDing and/or using Cure spells for hate silly? It isn't that PLD's can't deal damage its that they can't deal enough compared to other jobs.

It isn't just WAR and MNK I used those as reference because I played them recently. I've tanked better than PLD on BLU as well, my friend out tanks my PLD as well as several other PLDs we've PTed with on THF even when he Trick Attacks them. I've had DNCs who're setup to DD/tank hold better hate than PLDs in the group the few times we went with PLDs and DNC. Where does it stop as to who can or can't tank? I mean right now it's pretty much if you can DD better than PLD you can tank better than PLD.

I'd even dare say a SAM could out tank a PLD in Abyssea even those RR favors PLD assuming the SAM knows how to play SAM tank.

[Dale]

How is the argument that a DD can cap/recap hate faster than a PLD who is DDing and/or using Cure spells for hate silly? It isn't that PLD's can't deal damage its that they can't deal enough compared to other jobs.

It isn't just WAR and MNK I used those as reference because I played them recently. I've tanked better than PLD on BLU as well, my friend out tanks my PLD as well as several other PLDs we've PTed with on THF even when he Trick Attacks them. I've had DNCs who're setup to DD/tank hold better hate than PLDs in the group the few times we went with PLDs and DNC. Where does it stop as to who can or can't tank? I mean right now it's pretty much if you can DD better than PLD you can tank better than PLD.

I'd even dare say a SAM could out tank a PLD in Abyssea even those RR favors PLD assuming the SAM knows how to play SAM tank.

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

[Greatguardian]

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

I would agree with you if not for the fact that I know you're talking about Pld/War bloodtanking. I posted a thread with a link to Kaeko's blog for a reason, and I highly suggest you read through it. It's a long read, but it's worthwhile.

Simply put, you aren't gaining much/any Enmity by curing yourself when you take damage because the act of taking damage in the first place drops your Enmity levels. I leave the any in there because it is implied in some of your other posts that you do not gear swap or use macros at all, so it is highly unlikely you are putting enough Enmity+ in your cures to make up for the Enmity lost; that, or you are fulltiming Enmity and thus losing out on other important TP stats.

[Dale]

I would agree with you if not for the fact that I know you're talking about Pld/War bloodtanking. I posted a thread with a link to Kaeko's blog for a reason, and I highly suggest you read through it. It's a long read, but it's worthwhile.

Simply put, you aren't gaining much/any Enmity by curing yourself when you take damage because the act of taking damage in the first place drops your Enmity levels. I leave the any in there because it is implied in some of your other posts that you do not gear swap or use macros at all, so it is highly unlikely you are putting enough Enmity+ in your cures to make up for the Enmity lost; that, or you are fulltiming Enmity and thus losing out on other important TP stats.

I am not talking about pld/war blood tanking. Just to clear that up. I don't even know exactly what that term means.

And yes, i'm aware you lose enmity when you are hit. That is why healing yourself when you need to is so beneficial for a tank to do, as it helps recover the lost enmity. Obvioulsy if you were to just stand there after getting hit and not heal yourself you are going to lose more than if you had healed yourself. Therefore - it is wise to heal yourself as a paladin. That's all I am saying. It can be used effectively as an enmity tool, as well as a surivival tool. It's good. Paladins should use it.

As far as "blood tanking" as a pld/war, i'll leave that for your guide to discuss.

[Greever]

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

name some of those other nm's plz. cause with the same support to kill said nm, a high end DD will do it better

[Dale]

name some of those other nm's plz. cause with the same support to kill said nm, a high end DD will do it better

Really? Even a NM that is almost immune to physical damage? How would a monk or warrior do better on something like that then would a paladin who can use heals and attonement to create enmity? Say a NM elemental or turtle, something like that.

[Greatguardian]

Really? Even a NM that is almost immune to physical damage? How would a monk or warrior do better on something like that then would a paladin who can use heals and attonement to create enmity? Say a NM elemental or turtle, something like that.

I don't have any issues fighting turtles or elementals on MNK. I sit on over 1,000 Attack when I need to, idling at over 800 without berserk. Please read my previous post as well.

[Dale]

I don't have any issues fighting turtles or elementals on MNK. I sit on over 1,000 Attack when I need to, idling at over 800 without berserk. Please read my previous post as well.

How much do you hit a NM turtle or elemental for with your monk?

[Greatguardian]

How much do you hit a NM turtle or elemental for with your monk?

For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!