Enmity

[Dale]

u just dont get it do u. there is no relevant mob in this game that a pld can tank with out support. If a mob can be shadow tanked (/nin) give any DD the same support you would give to a pld and the DD will tank just as good if not better. The same goes for blood tanking. as mentioned before getting -pdt% gear is a joke now, and given the same support pld loses this battle also.

Who gives a shit if a pld can cure itself in an event where said pld needs support? 90% of the time, if ur curing urself for survival AND u have support, ur getting cure bombed, in which case destroys ur arguement that u can use cure for hate. But then again if ur talking about cure spamming for hate/survival, DNC dose it better.

U see my last statement? ill repeat it, DNC dose it better. No matter what arguement u make, u can attach that statement to any other job and its the god honest truth. There are only a few exceptions, but thats barely a handful where Pld dose it better. And that is the real problem with the job, not lack of holding hate or JA's.

I don't know what you mean when you say "relevant" mob. I tank mobs all the time without healing support - but i suppose none of those are "relevant" in your opinion

Anyway, i'm getting tired of this silly argument. Play paladin like you want. If you don't want to heal yourself with your paladin then don't. If you want to be a dps with your paladin, have at it. If you think the job sucks and every other job is better, just play a different job. I don't see us getting anywhere on this, cause we aren't going to agree. And if SE wants to buff us, fine - I won't complain. I love buffs. Just don't say the job sucks or that every other job is better, cause that's what i got a beef with.

[Greever]

I don't know what you mean when you say "relevant" mob. I tank mobs all the time without healing support - but i suppose none of those are "relevant" in your opinion

Anyway, i'm getting tired of this silly argument. Play paladin like you want. If you don't want to heal yourself with your paladin then don't. If you want to be a dps with your paladin, have at it. If you think the job sucks and every other job is better, just play a different job. I don't see us getting anywhere on this, cause we aren't going to agree.

relevant mob = any nm (should have said nm in previous post) that is worth killing for some sort of gain other then exp. ex: Rani, Alfard, Apademak, Dragua, Orthrus.

Not Exp mobs or teir 1 abyssea nm's...Id just love for u to say u tank any of those mobs w/o support lol.

Did i say anything about not healing myself as pld lol? U keep pushing the point that cure spammage is the way to go to tank, when its actually detremental when it comes to tanking. I am in no way saying that its bad to cure urself if need be, but depending on cure 4 to hold hate is useless.

Think about it for a few min, y did atonement enhance pld tanking? Could it be because when paired with a joyeuse a pld could pump out 750 dmg ws' in a very short amount of time?

[Dale]

relevant mob = any nm (should have said nm in previous post) that is worth killing for some sort of gain other then exp. ex: Rani, Alfard, Apademak, Dragua, Orthrus.

Not Exp mobs or teir 1 abyssea nm's...Id just love for u to say u tank any of those mobs w/o support lol.

Did i say anything about not healing myself as pld lol? U keep pushing the point that cure spammage is the way to go to tank, when its actually detremental when it comes to tanking. I am in no way saying that its bad to cure urself if need be, but depending on cure 4 to hold hate is useless.

Think about it for a few min, y did atonement enhance pld tanking? Could it be because when paired with a joyeuse a pld could pump out 750 dmg ws' in a very short amount of time?

I've killed plenty of NMs without healing support. I've killed NMs in campaigns without healing support. I"m new to abyssea, so i'm not sure what tier1 NMs are, but I killed some NM spider other day without any healing support. I can chain IT monsters without healing support. But all of this is besides the point, as your definition of what is "relevant" is way too limited for my tastes.

I think you underetsimate how well a paladin can sustain himself with heals. I don't know what you mean by "heal spammage" so i won't really comment only to say healing yourself to recover missing hp ins't a waste and certainly doesn't hurt the paladin's tanking.

I agree attonement deffinitely enhanced the pld tanking. That one was a game-changer. Not only does it allow you to do nice damage fast, but it also lets you gear more defensively - as you no longer need huge amounts of strength and attack to hit hard, plus it bypasses physical defense.

So i agree with you on attonment...but i have no clue how that takes away from the fact healing yourself to recover your hp is good. So the last part of you argument makes little sense to me. The small amount of time it takes away from your melee to heal yourself is deffinitely worth it. And coming from someone who uses attonement with a sword that hits more times than a joyeuse, I think i'm on solid ground with that conclusion.

Look. Play paladin your way and i'll play it my way. I can live with that. Just don't say the job sucks or is at the bottom of the pool, cause it isn't. The fact we have white magic does mean we need less support than other tanks, and that is our strength when compared to other tanks like monks and warriors. That was my point.

[Greever]

I've killed plenty of NMs without healing support. I've killed NMs in campaigns without healing support. I"m new to abyssea, so i'm not sure what tier1 NMs are, but I killed some NM spider other day without any healing support. I can chain IT monsters without healing support. But all of this is besides the point, as your definition of what is "relevant" is way too limited for my tastes.

I think you underetsimate how well a paladin can sustain himself with heals. I don't know what you mean by "heal spammage" so i won't really comment only to say healing yourself to recover missing hp ins't a waste and certainly doesn't hurt the paladin's tanking.

I agree attonement deffinitely enhanced the pld tanking. That one was a game-changer. Not only does it allow you to do nice damage fast, but it also lets you gear more defensively - as you no longer need huge amounts of strength and attack to hit hard, plus it bypasses physical defense.

So i agree with you on attonment...but i have no clue how that takes away from the fact healing yourself to recover your hp is good. So the last part of you argument makes little sense to me. The small amount of time it takes away from your melee to heal yourself is deffinitely worth it. And coming from someone who uses attonement with a sword that hits more times than a joyeuse, I think i'm on solid ground with that conclusion.

Look. Play paladin your way and i'll play it my way. I can live with that. Just don't say the job sucks or is at the bottom of the pool, cause it isn't. The fact we have white magic does mean we need less support than other tanks, and that is our strength when compared to other tanks like monks and warriors. That was my point.

ok, i think ur misunderstanding where im comming from. when u started this post it was about tanking. in my world tanking means holding hate while others in your party attack the mob. not soloing. If ur soloing, other jobs just do it better lol.

but seriously, i still stand by my orignal argument. In a situation (situation where u have support = ls events, dynamis, einherjar...basically endgame)where u have support, other jobs just do it better then pld. and if soloing, other jobs just do it better too lol.

And about atonement, idk y you would gear for def for it. to max out atonement haste/acc was the way to go lol...just like any DD knows, more DPS = more ws = mob dead faster. Thats y alot of DD jobs make x-hit builds, that means they can ws more often (mainly 2handers i think) or jobs like nin and mnk hit the haste cap to get as many attack rounds in as little time as possible. Again this was before abyssea.

Idk about u, but back when i played pld (pre abyssea)i had about 7 full gearsets for pld and always carried 5 of them on me at all times. (haste, fastcast, cure kit, -pdt, enmity, -mdt/+mdb and fire resist) and depending on the situation i geared accordingly.

but like i said before, depending on the situation...other jobs just do it better.

[Greever]

after reading the last few pages, it clear he dosent do endgame in anyway. Otherwise i think he would understand what most of us are trying to explain lol.