Enmity

[Sagian]

Do you understand that every spell you cast reduces your DPS(damage per second) as well as TP gain? Currently the most effective way to gain both CE and VE Enmity is through damage dealt from melee and WSs (this is why melee rip hate/tank so easily). While Cures generate hate they are costly not only to MP but to overall hate gain as you must interrupt your DPS.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what kind of damage do you think a single hit is going to do to gain more enmity than a Cure IV?

[Martel]

Dale,

I already stated that I misunderstood your stance on cures. Clearly you could not be advocating the use of cure kit spam when you don't understand what a cure kit is. Despite my having explained it twice.

To ensure I'm not misinterpreting anything else I'll lay out what I've understood about your image of PLD as a healer/tank. If you find any of this to be inaccurate, please correct it, and explain in more detail.

The healer/tank:

Blood tanks.
Cures when damaged.
TP's and ws's normally, but does not gear for DD.
I assume idles in PDT/DEF/VIT gear?
Subjob preference? I don't think it was stated aside from not /nin.
Policy on gear swaps?
Has no trouble holding hate, off DD that restrain themselves properly.
Anyone who disagrees with these points should go play mnk or nin?

Again please correct any misunderstandings on my part about this.

I'm also rather curious about the experiences that drive and support your play style. Could we hear a bit about your pld history?

Perhaps a bit on your:
NM/HNM tanking experience.
Event tanking(Dynamis,Limbus,Einhejar,etc)
NM solo.

Lastly, I recall you mentioned not having powerful atma yet. Can I then assume, that you have not personally experienced high end Abyssea PLD DD? Do the DD amongst your LS mates/friends also lack powerful atma?

[Dale]

Dale,

I already stated that I misunderstood your stance on cures. Clearly you could not be advocating the use of cure kit spam when you don't understand what a cure kit is. Despite my having explained it twice.

To ensure I'm not misinterpreting anything else I'll lay out what I've understood about your image of PLD as a healer/tank. If you find any of this to be inaccurate, please correct it, and explain in more detail.

The healer/tank:

Blood tanks.
Cures when damaged.
TP's and ws's normally, but does not gear for DD.
I assume idles in PDT/DEF/VIT gear?
Subjob preference? I don't think it was stated aside from not /nin.
Policy on gear swaps?
Has no trouble holding hate, off DD that restrain themselves properly.
Anyone who disagrees with these points should go play mnk or nin?

Again please correct any misunderstandings on my part about this.

I'm also rather curious about the experiences that drive and support your play style. Could we hear a bit about your pld history?

Perhaps a bit on your:
NM/HNM tanking experience.
Event tanking(Dynamis,Limbus,Einhejar,etc)
NM solo.

Lastly, I recall you mentioned not having powerful atma yet. Can I then assume, that you have not personally experienced high end Abyssea PLD DD? Do the DD amongst your LS mates/friends also lack powerful atma?

Thank you for not splitting apart my post, I appreciate that

I'm not going to get into specific details about my paladin because I don't want this discussion to turn into a conversation about me. I like to keep things general.

I have no problem with paladins who want to gear for more damage. I have done it myself on occasion. My problem is when a paladin sees himself as nothing but a damage dealer, and refuses to use his cure spell, focusing all of his efforts into doing more damage.

When a Paladin starts behaving like that I feel they would be better off playing a different job. And people who play like that and fuss at SE because they can't compete with jobs built to do nothing but damage are mostly the people i'm telling should go play monk or warrior.

If you don't want to make healing an important part of your gameplay and instead focus entirely on doing as much damage as you can - I think probably the Paladin just isn't the job you should be playing. There are better job choices out there for that kind of gameplay. That's all i'm saying.

[Zagen]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what kind of damage do you think a single hit is going to do to gain more enmity than a Cure IV?

- First it isn't just 1 hit. While the spell will cast within in the time of 1 hit you aren't accounting for the delay the game adds when you cast a spell or use a Job Ability which adds up to 2 and 3 sings every other cast or so. My PLD still needs improvement in DD gear and I can do 100-150 damage a swing in Abyssea not counting Crits which thanks to RR happen a lot, sorry haven't paid attention outside of Abyssea but I doubt its gonna be lower than what I can do in Abyssea.

- Second you aren't accounting for a Joyeuse OAT proc if you're using it or a Double Attack or a Triple Attack proc.

- Third the TP gained from these hits you miss will mean reduced TP gained which in turn means reduced WSs. Atonement was great back in the day for the 750 damage it could do but now in Abyssea a DD geared/Atma'ed PLD can pump out 1.2-1.8k Vorpal Blades or Sanguine Blades. 3-5k Chant du Cygne if you have it.

I don't know about you but that all sounds like Cure IV just helped cost you a lot more enmity than it could have given you.

Don't get me wrong it is great in a pinch to cure you but for hate gain it hurts more than it helps.

[Sagian]

- First it isn't just 1 hit. While the spell will cast within in the time of 1 hit you aren't accounting for the delay the game adds when you cast a spell or use a Job Ability which adds up to 2 and 3 sings every other cast or so. My PLD still needs improvement in DD gear and I can do 100-150 damage a swing in Abyssea not counting Crits which thanks to RR happen a lot, sorry haven't paid attention outside of Abyssea but I doubt its gonna be lower than what I can do in Abyssea.

- Second you aren't accounting for a Joyeuse OAT proc if you're using it or a Double Attack or a Triple Attack proc.

- Third the TP gained from these hits you miss will mean reduced TP gained which in turn means reduced WSs. Atonement was great back in the day for the 750 damage it could do but now in Abyssea a DD geared/Atma'ed PLD can pump out 1.2-1.8k Vorpal Blades or Sanguine Blades. 3-5k Chant du Cygne if you have it.

I don't know about you but that all sounds like Cure IV just helped cost you a lot more enmity than it could have given you.

Don't get me wrong it is great in a pinch to cure you but for hate gain it hurts more than it helps.

Then why does it work 95% of the time?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if someone else has hate, and I'm hitting the mob, and they're hitting the mob, and I'm doing WS's, and they're doing WS's, I might get hate for a moment, but I'm unable to lock hate. If I throw a Cure IV on the person getting hit, I have the mobs undivided attention, at least for a while.

[Zagen]

Then why does it work 95% of the time?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if someone else has hate, and I'm hitting the mob, and they're hitting the mob, and I'm doing WS's, and they're doing WS's, I might get hate for a moment, but I'm unable to lock hate. If I throw a Cure IV on the person getting hit, I have the mobs undivided attention, at least for a while.

I highly doubt it works 50% of the time let alone 95% of the time assuming you have decent DDs.

On anything that isn't strong to physical damage my WAR averages 250+ a hit not counting crits or widowmaker's bonus, my MNK does 150ish per punch on average and gets 2 cycles to every 3 a PLD gets, keep in mind that's 4 hits vs. 3 hits not counting DA or kick attacks. That means I will be capping/recapping CE/VE hate faster than PLD even if they spam Cure IV on me unless there is 0 ways for me to mitigate any of the damage I'm taking i.e. no shadows, counters, evasion, parries, guards.

This is why a PLD can't keep up once a DD caps hate they can keep it capped much easier than PLD, this sounds bad but at the same time from a design stand point it sounds correct, it means a DD has to hold back or they will die because the PLD won't be tanking. But there is the real problem DDs aren't as squishy as they used to be.

[Dale]

I highly doubt it works 50% of the time let alone 95% of the time assuming you have decent DDs.

On anything that isn't strong to physical damage my WAR averages 250+ a hit not counting crits or widowmaker's bonus, my MNK does 150ish per punch on average and gets 2 cycles to every 3 a PLD gets, keep in mind that's 4 hits vs. 3 hits not counting DA or kick attacks. That means I will be capping/recapping CE/VE hate faster than PLD even if they spam Cure IV on me unless there is 0 ways for me to mitigate any of the damage I'm taking i.e. no shadows, counters, evasion, parries, guards.

This is why a PLD can't keep up once a DD caps hate they can keep it capped much easier than PLD, this sounds bad but at the same time from a design stand point it sounds correct, it means a DD has to hold back or they will die because the PLD won't be tanking. But there is the real problem DDs aren't as squishy as they used to be.

This argument is silly. You act as if Paladins are weaklings and can't dish out healthy melee damage on their own. They can, especially if well-geared. It's not a comparison between a paladin's cures and a DD's offense, it's a comparison between a Paladin's offense + cures and a DD's offense.

But that aside, all of this really doesn't matter. Monks should be able to tank, as should warriors. Paladins can tank also. They are all tanks. Paladins have cures. Monks and warriors have higher offense. They all tank in their own way. I don't see the problem here.

[Zagen]

This argument is silly. You act as if Paladins are weaklings and can't dish out healthy melee damage on their own. They can, especially if well-geared. It's not a comparison between a paladin's cures and a DD's offense, it's a comparison between a Paladin's offense + cures and a DD's offense.

But that aside, all of this really doesn't matter. Monks should be able to tank, as should warriors. Paladins can tank also. They are all tanks. Paladins have cures. Monks and warriors have higher offense. They all tank in their own way. I don't see the problem here.

How is the argument that a DD can cap/recap hate faster than a PLD who is DDing and/or using Cure spells for hate silly? It isn't that PLD's can't deal damage its that they can't deal enough compared to other jobs.

It isn't just WAR and MNK I used those as reference because I played them recently. I've tanked better than PLD on BLU as well, my friend out tanks my PLD as well as several other PLDs we've PTed with on THF even when he Trick Attacks them. I've had DNCs who're setup to DD/tank hold better hate than PLDs in the group the few times we went with PLDs and DNC. Where does it stop as to who can or can't tank? I mean right now it's pretty much if you can DD better than PLD you can tank better than PLD.

I'd even dare say a SAM could out tank a PLD in Abyssea even those RR favors PLD assuming the SAM knows how to play SAM tank.

[Dale]

How is the argument that a DD can cap/recap hate faster than a PLD who is DDing and/or using Cure spells for hate silly? It isn't that PLD's can't deal damage its that they can't deal enough compared to other jobs.

It isn't just WAR and MNK I used those as reference because I played them recently. I've tanked better than PLD on BLU as well, my friend out tanks my PLD as well as several other PLDs we've PTed with on THF even when he Trick Attacks them. I've had DNCs who're setup to DD/tank hold better hate than PLDs in the group the few times we went with PLDs and DNC. Where does it stop as to who can or can't tank? I mean right now it's pretty much if you can DD better than PLD you can tank better than PLD.

I'd even dare say a SAM could out tank a PLD in Abyssea even those RR favors PLD assuming the SAM knows how to play SAM tank.

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.