Enmity

[Sekundes]

Sigh.

It's abundantly clear that a lot of people posting don't really know how Enmity works, so I'll help out.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html

The above is an incredibly extensive compendium of Enmity testing and knowledge. Kaeko (Kanican) has contributed literal mountains of information to the playerbase. Take the time to read through it, and you will find yourself better able to understand the FFXI Enmity system.

All Paladins Should Read This. (All senior citizens should wear life alert, etc)

Edit: I'll just make a new thread for this link, actually. I don't want it to get overlooked here.

Thanks for posting that, perhaps some will read it and even understand what is missing.

[Martel]

I hate when people piecemeal my posts like this. I'm just going to reply to it all at once.

I'm not sure why this offends you so, but you'd best get used to it, cause its about to happen again. I'm not much of a writer, really. I find it easier to address things one thought at a time. And quoting the thought I'm addressing before hand means I don't have to paraphrase, or reference it before hand. I can just reply.

Well, I can at least try to address whole paragraphs if that makes you feel any better.

Paladins are plenty useful in there current state, and there really isn't much DD stuff on AF3. Most of it centers on defensive stats and has some nice accuracy bonuses as well, which is great for paladin tanks, since accuracy food really isn't an option for any paladin wanting to maximize their defense.

IMHO, the worst thing you can do to a Paladin is forget about your healing and pretend you are a ninja. That is probably the main reason so many people are unhappy with the job. And their AF3 in no way resembles this kinda of playstyle. There is a tiny bit of haste on it and some strength, but that's about it. It is deffinitely a defensive set, as it should be. Tons of HP and Mp also, stats which any good heal/tank will drool over

The reason many PLDs are dissatisfied isn't because they're playing the job wrong. It's because, no matter how they play, a large portion of the player base considers PLD useless. The howls of "Fix PLD! Fix PLD!" ringing through these forums, and most other forums, is a fair indication that PLD is not at the top of its game, much less in demand as a tank.

PLD AF3 isn't a defensive set, its a balanced set. Nearly every piece of it offers both offensive and defensive bonuses. The sole exception being the head which has a defensive/casting role. I would hardly call 12% haste a "tiny bit of haste". That's nearly half way to the haste cap in 3 pieces of gear. Personally, I TP in 4/5 Creed +2, and while you could argue about the body, the hands, feet and legs are best-in-slot TP gear. SE certainly did it right on the creed set. Now how does a set packed with DD stats not reflect a DD PLD playstyle? Having great TP gear with good defensive stats on it as well does even more to encourage and enable a PLD to play DD style.

And who the hell is pretending to be a NIN? Personally, I've hardly been on /nin recently, much less dual wielding. But I have an Ochain, and thus have other effective options that most PLDs do not.

Subbing nin, and/or DD'ing, doesn't mean we're ignoring our other capabilities, or pretending to be another job. It just means we use them only when necessary and appropriate.

Curing is not a waste of mp for enmity. Not only does it create a ton of enmity, but it also restores your HP as well, so you get two things in one. And just because you are curing yourself doesn't mean you can't melee also - so basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing purely for enmity, is a waste of time and mp. Note that 'purely' there. That means that you aren't already missing hp, thus the HP recovered is moot.

In order for cure to be cast purely for enmity, the use of a cure kit(or cheat, whatever name you prefer) is implied. You do know what that is right? In case you don't, as the misunderstanding in your post seems to imply, I will explain. A cure kit is when you use gear to first lower your max hp, then raise it up again, and fill the created gap by curing. Thus you weren't missing hp in the first place and the cure is cast only for the resulting enmity gain.

If you've been damaged, by all means cure yourself. I did state that curing has its place, as a survival tool. Curing for survival sake is a useful part of PLD. It's expected, and we haven't argued against curing to stay alive.

Melee attacks cannot process while casting a spell. Common knowledge, isn't it? Certainly, you can remain engaged to the mob while you cure spam, but every spell cast pecks holes in your DPS. Even a short spell like cure 4 will cost you a whole melee round. Even spamming you'll sneak a hit in here and there. But your over all DPS and WS rate takes a hit.

As for the two things at once, DD'ing not only generates excellent enmity, it does what we came here to do. Kill the mob, reap the rewards. and does it faster.

So basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing does not prevent you from meleeing or doing damage. That's just silly to think that. Obvioulsy a paladin meleeing and using weapon skills and curing on top of that is going to create a lot more enmity than a paladin who does nothing but melee and use weapon skills. That's the bottom line, and what i was pointing out. I never said a paladin should sheath his sword and just use cures and stop hitting the monster and using his weapon skills.

You have this backwards. A pld who is continuous interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob.

And the game hasn't changed in the respect you say it has since 2004. In fact I'd say Paladins far excel in their role as a healing tank than ever they did way back when in 2004.

I can't imagine in what respect you think I'm speaking that would honestly allow you to say that the game hasn't changed. PLD's role? To hear most people tell it it no longer even has one. Because nearly everything has changed. Even PLD itself. But more so, the enmity mechanics and situation that govern those roles.

The enmity modifiers for damage, dealt and taken. The cure mods. The levels of damage poeple are able to put out. The amount of damage people can survive. All of these have changed drastically.

Due to these changes, nearly any DD can be used as a tank, and survive. PLD's role. To hear most tell it, is to go change jobs. Which ironically is what you've been telling us to do.

Basically, PLD is not needed. There are very few, if any, mobs that can't be tanked by other jobs. And most of those jobs bring more utility(higher dmg, weakness procs) with them.

You call PLD a healer/tank.. but PLD can't fill the healer role alone on anything serious. Try PLD main healing on say.. Raja. I'd like to see a pld manage that without brewing or using fanatics/fools drinks. A WHM, or other additional support, will still be needed. And if you need a whm anyway, why not bring an tank that deals more dmg? Or has weakness procs that are needed?

And this was my point. If you don't like to cure yourself to create extra enmity while keeping yourself alive - Paladin just isn't the job you should play IMHO. If you want to blink tank and rely on maximizing your melee damage to create enmity and neglect your heals, you probably should be playing something else. That's why so many paladins at the moment are envious of monks and other blink tanks...because they are trying to be like monks or ninjas with plate armor on and it's just not working out for them as well as it is for jobs that are actually made for it.

I already addressed the cure, job, and job change issue in here I think. For the remainder..

Who said I wanted to blink tank? I like blood tanking. And thanks to Ochain I can do it effectively on most mobs. Shadows, for me, are a necessary evil. There are still mobs I'd need them on. Usually anything with a really dangerous additional effect on melee hit, en-doom, etc.

And who's trying to be a mnk or nin? I DD PLD style. Sword, shield, and 10 mobs feeding me TP. XD Although, dual wield has its place in DD as well. If additional defenses aren't needed, boost your DD.

Whoa.. I hit the character limit. Is this SE's way of telling me I'm long-winded? Splitting into 2 posts. I suppose that is one issue with quoting like I have been. Although its an issue I've never run into till now.

[Martel]

Finally to close i'll just say this,
The Paladin is indeed a heal/tank, and that is a very accurate understanding of the job. We are not ninjas in plate armor. That is a very poor understanding of the job.

We just completely disagree with one another, so might as well leave it at that.

This job is awesome for players who want to maximize their ability to tank and keep themselves alive while doing it. It's what we actually excel at.

This job is not awesome for players who want to maximize their enmity by doing huge melee dps. You will always be overshadowed by other jobs if you attempt this, and that's why you see so many unhappy paladins.

We have way too many people playing paladin right now who would be far better suited playing as a warrior, monk, or even ninja.

Again with this ninja thing.. well, I covered that already, and most of the rest of this section.

PLD overshadowed eh. Yep can't argue there. There are better DD jobs. But you make it sound like if we stay in this little 2004 PLD role, we won't be over shadowed.

Thing is, it's a fairly common opinion that PLD has already been completely overshadowed in every way. A healer/tank eh..? A MNK or NIN /DNC(or a DNC main) can do that too. A blood tank, BLU is quite good at that as well SO is MNK, but that 's really more counter tanking. And deals more DMG. But.. why are we trying to blood tank anyway? Evasion, blink, or counter tanking are more effective. Less dmg taken, reduced risk of nasty en-effects, and you don't have to gear for dmg reduction(well, with eva tanking you usually do need some eva+) so you get a higher dmg output. And there's reduced mob TP feed since its not hitting you. Finish what your doing faster,and thus reap greater rewards over time. Where is the need for a PLD? And if they don't need it.. well they'll bring something more useful.

So, to close I'll just say this;

I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation.

I asked you, if you would seek to understand the current situation, and future changes, and if you'd adapt to them. I think the answer to that is pretty clearly, No.

[Ordoric]

pld is the tank job the way other jobs have been minipulated pld needs some buffing however some dd is over powerd loved colibi as pld 2 sam pole arm drg and rng i wanted to see a marco " WATCH HO FAST I DIE "<sidewinder>

[Dale]

I'm not sure why this offends you so, but you'd best get used to it, cause its about to happen again. I'm not much of a writer, really. I find it easier to address things one thought at a time. And quoting the thought I'm addressing before hand means I don't have to paraphrase, or reference it before hand. I can just reply.

Well, I can at least try to address whole paragraphs if that makes you feel any better.



The reason many PLDs are dissatisfied isn't because they're playing the job wrong. It's because, no matter how they play, a large portion of the player base considers PLD useless. The howls of "Fix PLD! Fix PLD!" ringing through these forums, and most other forums, is a fair indication that PLD is not at the top of its game, much less in demand as a tank.

PLD AF3 isn't a defensive set, its a balanced set. Nearly every piece of it offers both offensive and defensive bonuses. The sole exception being the head which has a defensive/casting role. I would hardly call 12% haste a "tiny bit of haste". That's nearly half way to the haste cap in 3 pieces of gear. Personally, I TP in 4/5 Creed +2, and while you could argue about the body, the hands, feet and legs are best-in-slot TP gear. SE certainly did it right on the creed set. Now how does a set packed with DD stats not reflect a DD PLD playstyle? Having great TP gear with good defensive stats on it as well does even more to encourage and enable a PLD to play DD style.

And who the hell is pretending to be a NIN? Personally, I've hardly been on /nin recently, much less dual wielding. But I have an Ochain, and thus have other effective options that most PLDs do not.

Subbing nin, and/or DD'ing, doesn't mean we're ignoring our other capabilities, or pretending to be another job. It just means we use them only when necessary and appropriate.



Curing purely for enmity, is a waste of time and mp. Note that 'purely' there. That means that you aren't already missing hp, thus the HP recovered is moot.

In order for cure to be cast purely for enmity, the use of a cure kit(or cheat, whatever name you prefer) is implied. You do know what that is right? In case you don't, as the misunderstanding in your post seems to imply, I will explain. A cure kit is when you use gear to first lower your max hp, then raise it up again, and fill the created gap by curing. Thus you weren't missing hp in the first place and the cure is cast only for the resulting enmity gain.

If you've been damaged, by all means cure yourself. I did state that curing has its place, as a survival tool. Curing for survival sake is a useful part of PLD. It's expected, and we haven't argued against curing to stay alive.

Melee attacks cannot process while casting a spell. Common knowledge, isn't it? Certainly, you can remain engaged to the mob while you cure spam, but every spell cast pecks holes in your DPS. Even a short spell like cure 4 will cost you a whole melee round. Even spamming you'll sneak a hit in here and there. But your over all DPS and WS rate takes a hit.

As for the two things at once, DD'ing not only generates excellent enmity, it does what we came here to do. Kill the mob, reap the rewards. and does it faster.

So basically your whole argument makes no sense.



You have this backwards. A pld who is continuous interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob.



I can't imagine in what respect you think I'm speaking that would honestly allow you to say that the game hasn't changed. PLD's role? To hear most people tell it it no longer even has one. Because nearly everything has changed. Even PLD itself. But more so, the enmity mechanics and situation that govern those roles.

The enmity modifiers for damage, dealt and taken. The cure mods. The levels of damage poeple are able to put out. The amount of damage people can survive. All of these have changed drastically.

Due to these changes, nearly any DD can be used as a tank, and survive. PLD's role. To hear most tell it, is to go change jobs. Which ironically is what you've been telling us to do.

Basically, PLD is not needed. There are very few, if any, mobs that can't be tanked by other jobs. And most of those jobs bring more utility(higher dmg, weakness procs) with them.

You call PLD a healer/tank.. but PLD can't fill the healer role alone on anything serious. Try PLD main healing on say.. Raja. I'd like to see a pld manage that without brewing or using fanatics/fools drinks. A WHM, or other additional support, will still be needed. And if you need a whm anyway, why not bring an tank that deals more dmg? Or has weakness procs that are needed?



I already addressed the cure, job, and job change issue in here I think. For the remainder..

Who said I wanted to blink tank? I like blood tanking. And thanks to Ochain I can do it effectively on most mobs. Shadows, for me, are a necessary evil. There are still mobs I'd need them on. Usually anything with a really dangerous additional effect on melee hit, en-doom, etc.

And who's trying to be a mnk or nin? I DD PLD style. Sword, shield, and 10 mobs feeding me TP. XD Although, dual wield has its place in DD as well. If additional defenses aren't needed, boost your DD.

Whoa.. I hit the character limit. Is this SE's way of telling me I'm long-winded? Splitting into 2 posts. I suppose that is one issue with quoting like I have been. Although its an issue I've never run into till now.

It's annoying to respond to because it's broken up into tons of different pieces. But i'll deal with it...i'll just answer you generally.

I never said paladins should cure when they don't have hp missing. That is just stupid. Who on earth would waste mp curing themselves if they aren't missing any hp. Not only would that be pointless, as it woudn't generate any enmity anyway - but is just idiotic. You can use cures for both - to create enmity and to restore missing hp. This debate has gotten ludicrous.

And a ton of people are trying to be ninjas with their paladin. You may not be one of them, but a lot of them are. But you sidestepped my point.. A paladin is better off healing and doing damage to create enmity than he is just increasing his damage, that is what i'm saying. If you want to be a job who focuses on damage dealing, be something else - paladin is not your best choice. We are - in fact - healing tanks. That's what the job is, and what it was meant to be - and that hasn't changed.

[Greatguardian]

It's annoying to respond to because it's broken up into tons of different pieces. But i'll deal with it...i'll just answer you generally.

I never said paladins should cure when they don't have hp missing. That is just stupid. Who on earth would waste curing themselves if they aren't missing any hp. Not only would that be pointless, as it woudn't generate any enmity anyway - but is just idiotic. You can use cures for both - to create enmity and to restore missing hp. This debate has gotten ludicrous.

And a ton of people are trying to be ninjas with their paladin. You may not be one of them, but a lot of them are. But you sidestepped my point, which indicates a weakness. A paladin is better off healing and doing damage to create enmity than he is just increasing his damage, that is what i'm saying. If you want to be a job who focuses on damage dealing, be something else - paladin is not your best choice. We are - in fact - healing tanks. That's what the job is, and what it was meant to be - and that hasn't changed.

ITT: What it was "meant to be" versus How it best performs.

Guess I should start subbing RDM on my NIN and stick to enfeebling/pulling, then.

[Dale]

ITT: What it was "meant to be" versus How it best performs.

Guess I should start subbing RDM on my NIN and stick to enfeebling/pulling, then.

Paladin performs quite well as a healing/tank and I got no complaints

[Greatguardian]

Paladin performs quite well as a healing/tank and I got no complaints - but if you think it does better as a /rdm or /nin to enfeeble and pull... go for it, but it's no wonder you are dissatisfied with your paladin lol

You misread. I was referring to NIN/RDM enfeebling/pulling as "What Square Enix designed the job to be".

I'm not at all dissatisfied with PLD. I'm sitting here scratching my head at all these people posting complaint threads about it, proposing fixes. PLD works fine as an auxiliary job. It doesn't have any issues maintaining capped Enmity, and it can deal damage around the strength of a Bst or a Thf in Abyssea.

The reasons people avoid PLDs are twofold:

1) Most PLDs suck. Really, really suck. Like, cannot even salvage them. They are horrible, horrible, horrible PLDs. Total waste of space. PLD has an extremely high ratio of Suck to Good in its playerbase. This is partially because of reason 2.

2) PLD is unnecessary in a lowman environment. Most high end players aim to be efficient and get things done as quickly and with as few people as possible. In this context, it makes no sense to bring a PLD to anything Abyssea related. WAR, NIN, and MNK cover all Red and Blue procs (with Hexa from a Whm), and all deal significantly more damage than a PLD. THF deals about as much damage as PLD, but at the same time adds TH. Generally speaking, if you have enough extra people that bringing a PLD is not detracting from your efficiency, you're probably still better off getting that PLD on something else and splitting your group up.

So this basically leaves you with high end players only using PLD when they feel like messing around, or not really worrying about efficiency (typically this is only among friend groups), and then all the horrible, horrible, low tier PLDs that inhabit the game. Chances are, if you're getting a PLD you don't know, they're horrible.

[Dale]

You misread. I was referring to NIN/RDM enfeebling/pulling as "What Square Enix designed the job to be".

I'm not at all dissatisfied with PLD. I'm sitting here scratching my head at all these people posting complaint threads about it, proposing fixes. PLD works fine as an auxiliary job. It doesn't have any issues maintaining capped Enmity, and it can deal damage around the strength of a Bst or a Thf in Abyssea.

The reasons people avoid PLDs are twofold:

1) Most PLDs suck. Really, really suck. Like, cannot even salvage them. They are horrible, horrible, horrible PLDs. Total waste of space. PLD has an extremely high ratio of Suck to Good in its playerbase. This is partially because of reason 2.

2) PLD is unnecessary in a lowman environment. Most high end players aim to be efficient and get things done as quickly and with as few people as possible. In this context, it makes no sense to bring a PLD to anything Abyssea related. WAR, NIN, and MNK cover all Red and Blue procs (with Hexa from a Whm), and all deal significantly more damage than a PLD. THF deals about as much damage as PLD, but at the same time adds TH. Generally speaking, if you have enough extra people that bringing a PLD is not detracting from your efficiency, you're probably still better off getting that PLD on something else and splitting your group up.

So this basically leaves you with high end players only using PLD when they feel like messing around, or not really worrying about efficiency (typically this is only among friend groups), and then all the horrible, horrible, low tier PLDs that inhabit the game. Chances are, if you're getting a PLD you don't know, they're horrible.

Ok well i'm sorry I misread your post. Thought you said sub redmage or ninja, not "on" ninja. Though I have to say I think Ninjas and Red Mages make excellent enfeeblers.

And the reason so many Paladins suck is because they try to mimic the paladins in their linkshells who basically outgear the content they are doing, so they are able to play in....i'll say odd ways and get away with it. And the lowbie thinks it is awesome and tries to copy it to a much lesser affect.

Another factor is a lot of paladins never learn how to solo - level up mega fast in abyssea to the point their combat skills can't keep up - and are gimped considerably as a result. Many of them also never bother to level up their enhancing skill, which has a significant impact on Phalanx, which is the best thing to happen to paladin since the shield buff.

And from my understanding, a lot of jobs are unnecessary in abyssea once the most powerful atma is attained, as it allows jobs to buff considerably to the point they are no longer reliant on other jobs to make up for their weaknesses. So I don't see this as being a problem with the paladin. It's just an abyssea phenomenon, where the usual rules don't apply.

[Greatguardian]

You're right, it's not limited to PLD. But I don't see people clamoring to get BSTs, PUPs, or SMNs in their linkshells in the overworld either. It applies both inside and out. If anything, Abyssea promotes a greater job diversity by requiring at least 6 unique jobs to full proc any single NM (MNK/WAR, NIN/WAR, WAR, WHM, BLU/NIN, BLM/BRD). Outside, you could just have a BRD/BLM, WHM/SCH, and any two DDs and you'll be set.