Enmity

[Dale]

You're right, it's not limited to PLD. But I don't see people clamoring to get BSTs, PUPs, or SMNs in their linkshells in the overworld either. It applies both inside and out. If anything, Abyssea promotes a greater job diversity by requiring at least 6 unique jobs to full proc any single NM (MNK/WAR, NIN/WAR, WAR, WHM, BLU/NIN, BLM/BRD). Outside, you could just have a BRD/BLM, WHM/SCH, and any two DDs and you'll be set.

Well I've had quite a few linkshells trying to snag me to use retribution for them on abyssea NMs.

I understand your point though - but that could be primarily due to the fact BST, PUPS, and SMNs are just more rare on your server, so there is more of a demand for them. I think SE's intent was to give jobs with a less dominant role more of a purpose in abyssea.

Far as being on the outside - who cares if an ignorant exp party snubs you. Paladin is a beast solo, can chain incredibly tough monsters for all the exp you could ever want. So it's their loss really. Just solo your exp or party with friends. There is no need to deal with cocky DDs who think they are awesome tanks because they have both a bard and white mage supporting their butts.

[Martel]

I never said paladins should cure when they don't have hp missing. That is just stupid. Who on earth would waste mp curing themselves if they aren't missing any hp. Not only would that be pointless, as it woudn't generate any enmity anyway - but is just idiotic. You can use cures for both - to create enmity and to restore missing hp. This debate has gotten ludicrous.

Are.. You serious? I'm not getting trolled am I? I even explained this in my post. Did you read it? The part about Cure Kits(cheats)? Well, I'll try again.

The reason someone would cure themselves when they haven't been damaged is for the enmity. Cause they aren't going to cure for 0. A cure kit, is when you use gear swaps to create a difference between your current and max hp. That difference can then be filled by curing. So, Equip hp-, then convert hp>mp gear, start casting cure, remove all the -gear and equip HP+ and enmity gear. That's a cure kit.

They were created, and mostly used when tanking /nin, since you didn't take dmg, but did lose small amounts of hate via shadow loss. But after the introduction of atonement and the accompanying increase in PLDs DD output, they were regulated to a back up form of enmity gain. As Atonement spam is far more effective if you can tp/ws the mob. Cure kits are still useful if you can't DD a mob, but if you can DD they're now mostly a waste of time.

I really want to know how you didn't know what a cure kit is. How long have you been a PLD? Did you never tank any HNM type mobs? Or any major NMS at all?

It is Cure kit spam, Which greatguardian brought up while when mentioning the low efficiency of cure enmity, that I object to. Which is what i thought you were advocating, initially. But Greatguardian also noted that curing for survival is fine, just not good hate compared to DD.

But you know.. Since you apparently aren't advocating cure kits, and arguing for normal cures as a source of hate.. that's even worse for your argument. Because someone must take dmg to be cured. And if you have hate, that's you, losing hate to be able to cure. 2 steps forward, one step back. And the rate of Curing is limited by how fast you're taking dmg. Once your HP is full, you stop getting hate via cures. DD just keeps on rollin'.

And a ton of people are trying to be ninjas with their paladin. You may not be one of them, but a lot of them are. But you sidestepped my point.. A paladin is better off healing and doing damage to create enmity than he is just increasing his damage, that is what i'm saying. If you want to be a job who focuses on damage dealing, be something else - paladin is not your best choice. We are - in fact - healing tanks. That's what the job is, and what it was meant to be - and that hasn't changed.

I didn't sidestep your point. I addressed it directly.

"You have this backwards. A pld who is continuously interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob."

I seem to recall addressing the job concern already too..

"I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation."

Did you read my posts? Why am I addressing the same points over and over with no change to counter my argument.

[Greever]

Are.. You serious? I'm not getting trolled am I? I even explained this in my post. Did you read it? The part about Cure Kits(cheats)? Well, I'll try again.

The reason someone would cure themselves when they haven't been damaged is for the enmity. Cause they aren't going to cure for 0. A cure kit, is when you use gear swaps to create a difference between your current and max hp. That difference can then be filled by curing. So, Equip hp-, then convert hp>mp gear, start casting cure, remove all the -gear and equip HP+ and enmity gear. That's a cure kit.

They were created, and mostly used when tanking /nin, since you didn't take dmg, but did lose small amounts of hate via shadow loss. But after the introduction of atonement and the accompanying increase in PLDs DD output, they were regulated to a back up form of enmity gain. As Atonement spam is far more effective if you can tp/ws the mob. Cure kits are still useful if you can't DD a mob, but if you can DD they're now mostly a waste of time.

I really want to know how you didn't know what a cure kit is. How long have you been a PLD? Did you never tank any HNM type mobs? Or any major NMS at all?

It is Cure kit spam, Which greatguardian brought up while when mentioning the low efficiency of cure enmity, that I object to. Which is what i thought you were advocating, initially. But Greatguardian also noted that curing for survival is fine, just not good hate compared to DD.

But you know.. Since you apparently aren't advocating cure kits, and arguing for normal cures as a source of hate.. that's even worse for your argument. Because someone must take dmg to be cured. And if you have hate, that's you, losing hate to be able to cure. 2 steps forward, one step back. And the rate of Curing is limited by how fast you're taking dmg. Once your HP is full, you stop getting hate via cures. DD just keeps on rollin'.



I didn't sidestep your point. I addressed it directly.

"You have this backwards. A pld who is continuously interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob."

I seem to recall addressing the job concern already too..

"I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation."

Did you read my posts? Why am I addressing the same points over and over with no change to counter my argument.

Because ppl like Dale still live in '04 and refuse to change with how the game is played

[Auredant]

I have seen quite a few posts thus far pertaining to Enmity challenges, and some posters even going so far as to suggest the paladin should have his enmity output doubled to make them more viable tanks. Now with this I have an issue, and I will explain why.

One of the key differences between a good player and a bad player is the ability to manage their enmity. This is a big part to the challenge of this game - and the fact an effective damage dealer can rip hate off the Paladin is the way it should be. It makes the battle more interesting and thought-provoking. If the Paladin could simply keep hate all the time easily no matter what the other members of the party did the game's battle system would suffer greatly as a result.

Example: state of point if a Dragoon goes nuts at the beginning of a Nm fight spamming weapon skills and dies because of it, that is the way it should be and is not the fault of the Paladin, and buffs should not be giving to the Paladin to prevent this from happening either, else many fights would turn into bland "spam the most damage you can as quick as you can till its dead" monotony This would be dull and way too easy.

Paladins need to learn to stop blaming themselves with damage dealers draw enmity and get themselves killed, because 9 times out of 10 it's usually not the paladin's fault, but the dead guy's because he took a bigger bite then he could chew.

while that was generally the case the game has changed. a dd no longer has to "go nuts" to rip hate off a tank. It is an issue that needs adressing if pld is to become a viable job again

[Auredant]

There are loads of ways to fix pld if Square really wanted to.

The emnity idea would work, allowing cures to exceed the current cap, dissallowing any DD tanking (since damage done by any source would be unable to exceed the old cap and mages curing you would be killed) and giving pld a JA that allows it to also exceed the cap (give it to nin too but using this JA would greatly nerf its DD capability equalising it to pld as a tank). So like, any form of damage can go upto the current 100% cap at best, but cures, pld&nin using the special JA can take it upto 150%. Every job in the game should not be able to cap hate as they currently can.

Another way is to make new endgame mobs that simply don't take damage well at all under any circumstances and have lots of conal aoe moves(or normal moves being conal aoe, like iron giants), very high -damage taken and -magic dmg (lower hp to make the fight lengths about the same). In this way holding hate via damage simply won't work and again cures would exceed a DD's ability to tank anything at all. Specific tanks would be the only jobs able to hold hate while DD pick away at it. Mobs like this of course would also need to go into hyper rage mode doing massive unstunnable aoes if their hp bar drops too quick (to stop zergs and make the fight more tactical).

Lastly make all endgame mobs have high regain and lots of aoe moves, also make them rage within a fairly short amount of time to force you to put a lot of DD on it. Now give pld spells which give defferent types of auras, ie -50%+ damage taken to everyone within 10 distance of the pld. Pld with -dmg taken aura that covers all the DD allows you to take the mob down with lots of DD on it, also the mobs should have regular stages where it cannot be damaged every 5-10% hp taken aswell as -dmg to ranged attacks to stop zerging or getting around the need for auras.

The current hate system is stupid and terrible, makes no sense the hate system does not give benefits and ways to exceed current limits to it's tanking classes. Laughable design that a powerful DD can make a paladin useless and unable under any means to get hate off them lol

I like this pld aura idea...would require testing but this alone would breathe life into the job.

[Dale]

Are.. You serious? I'm not getting trolled am I? I even explained this in my post. Did you read it? The part about Cure Kits(cheats)? Well, I'll try again.

The reason someone would cure themselves when they haven't been damaged is for the enmity. Cause they aren't going to cure for 0. A cure kit, is when you use gear swaps to create a difference between your current and max hp. That difference can then be filled by curing. So, Equip hp-, then convert hp>mp gear, start casting cure, remove all the -gear and equip HP+ and enmity gear. That's a cure kit.

They were created, and mostly used when tanking /nin, since you didn't take dmg, but did lose small amounts of hate via shadow loss. But after the introduction of atonement and the accompanying increase in PLDs DD output, they were regulated to a back up form of enmity gain. As Atonement spam is far more effective if you can tp/ws the mob. Cure kits are still useful if you can't DD a mob, but if you can DD they're now mostly a waste of time.

I really want to know how you didn't know what a cure kit is. How long have you been a PLD? Did you never tank any HNM type mobs? Or any major NMS at all?

It is Cure kit spam, Which greatguardian brought up while when mentioning the low efficiency of cure enmity, that I object to. Which is what i thought you were advocating, initially. But Greatguardian also noted that curing for survival is fine, just not good hate compared to DD.

But you know.. Since you apparently aren't advocating cure kits, and arguing for normal cures as a source of hate.. that's even worse for your argument. Because someone must take dmg to be cured. And if you have hate, that's you, losing hate to be able to cure. 2 steps forward, one step back. And the rate of Curing is limited by how fast you're taking dmg. Once your HP is full, you stop getting hate via cures. DD just keeps on rollin'.



I didn't sidestep your point. I addressed it directly.

"You have this backwards. A pld who is continuously interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob."

I seem to recall addressing the job concern already too..

"I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation."

Did you read my posts? Why am I addressing the same points over and over with no change to counter my argument.

Well if you would respond to me in a single post without splitting it up in a million different sections like you are writing a freaking book with chapters perhaps i could follow your replies better

Firstly - i never suggested paladins should do weak cures and spam them for crap enmity. That is a retarded strat, and silly how you are going off on this acting like that's what i suggested paladins do. But i've talked about this nonsense enough - so i'm moving on. I never said they should do that.

And you did sidestep my point, and you are still side stepping a point. A paladin curing himself to recover his hp while doing melee and weapon skills will generate more enmity than a paldin who does nothing but melee and do weapon skills. Now of course a paladin who spends all his time spamming weak cures to for crap enmity is not going to be effective, but i never suggested a paladin do that.

In short - you understimate how effective casting powerful heals on yourself to recover at least 400 hps back on yourself while tanking is for creating extra enmity. And if you want me to counter your arguments argue about something i actually said.

Now that being said stop complaining about my inability to follow your responses. If you want me to follow them better, stop splitting your replies up into so many different sections. Otherwise, stop complaining about it

[Dale]

Because ppl like Dale still live in '04 and refuse to change with how the game is played

w/e greever

Just because it's 2011 doesn't mean paladins should stop curing themselves, and I think this whole discussion has turned into nonsense. Obviously the paladin was designed to heal himself while tanking. If you want to be a job that focuses on primarily doing high melee damage, the paladin is a poor choice in jobs. We are designed to heal ourselves, and that will help fix the enmity gap so many of you are feeling when compared with other high damage melee.

But you can play the job however you want. But just let me say it's no wonder to me - just by reading the way so many of you play this job - they you are all clamoring for more buffs, say the job sucks or isnt' viable ect...

Paladins who think healing is a waste and is a thing of the past. I have heard it all now lol

I wonder what is next. Black mages who don't nuke and demand their melee be buffed because they are no longer viable as dps

[Dale]

while that was generally the case the game has changed. a dd no longer has to "go nuts" to rip hate off a tank. It is an issue that needs adressing if pld is to become a viable job again

Well it is still the case as far as i'm concerned. I have no trouble keeping the mobs off my dps or getting it back off my dps when they play smart and don't over-reach what they can handle.

The Paladin is plenty viable in my judgement, but as always, you are free to disagree

[Zagen]

And you did sidestep my point, and you are still side stepping a point. A paladin curing himself to recover his hp while doing melee and weapon skills will generate more enmity than a paldin who does nothing but melee and do weapon skills. Now of course a paladin who spends all his time spamming weak cures to for crap enmity is not going to be effective, but i never suggested a paladin do that.

In short - you understimate how effective casting powerful heals on yourself to recover at least 400 hps back on yourself while tanking is for creating extra enmity. And if you want me to counter your arguments argue about something i actually said.

Do you understand that every spell you cast reduces your DPS(damage per second) as well as TP gain? Currently the most effective way to gain both CE and VE Enmity is through damage dealt from melee and WSs (this is why melee rip hate/tank so easily). While Cures generate hate they are costly not only to MP but to overall hate gain as you must interrupt your DPS.

[Sagian]

Do you understand that every spell you cast reduces your DPS(damage per second) as well as TP gain? Currently the most effective way to gain both CE and VE Enmity is through damage dealt from melee and WSs (this is why melee rip hate/tank so easily). While Cures generate hate they are costly not only to MP but to overall hate gain as you must interrupt your DPS.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what kind of damage do you think a single hit is going to do to gain more enmity than a Cure IV?