Enmity

[Martel]

The thing that always worried me when people say things like, "Fix def/VIT", is that SE will actually do it. And do it badly.

Any changes to such a fundamental function would end up being global. Meaning, sure, our def matters now. But the mobs def really, really matters now, lol. And howls of rage were heard across the world as people's DD output went down the drain.

I'm sure people will say something like, "But they'd only do it to PLD". This is SE. Remember the 2 hander update? When all the 2H type mobs(spiders, ohgod, drg mobs, etc) started tearing people to shreds? Somehow, I doubt giving 2H mobs a boost was needed to balance player dual wield vs 2H weapons. Or maybe the mamool DRGs were pissed at the NINs?

But really, it was necessary to change monster mechanics as well, because it was a change to a fundamental DMG mechanic. Like DEF and VIT. Now... they might manage to limit it to PLD mobs. Then we'd just have some crazy tough PLD mobs.

But hey, if they did "fix" def/vit, then everyone would be doing terrible damage. Then PLD could tank with flash and cure kits again. Ahh, the not-so-good ol' days.

[Greever]

You could easily find ways to stop both of those jobs tanking(although i see nothing wrong with having 3-4 tanks as opposed to everything can tank, as it is), ie. give mobs conal tp moves or auras that have horribly dibilitating unremovable debuffs (slow2, silence, massive mp draining disease etc) which they could then make pld and nin immune to via new JA. Ultimately Square would use their own ideas anyway so spending too much thought or arguing specific ideas as a player is pointless, they were just to show a few ideas of things that could be done to show it's not impossible, they could make up proper fixes (being paid to do this stuff and all).

When I mention this stuff of course I mean new proper raid mobs, HNM or bigger events. Not abyssea fluff which is now finished and done.

Personally I would like to see blood tanking back, fix defence etc but they probably won't do that either.

Why go through such extream measures to make 1 job relevent?

[Greatguardian]

Cure spam is some of the most MP-Inefficient Enmity gain in the entire game. Blood tanking also means your CE is getting smashed to bits every time you take a hit, lowering your overall enmity levels.

[Dale]

Cure spam is some of the most MP-Inefficient Enmity gain in the entire game. Blood tanking also means your CE is getting smashed to bits every time you take a hit, lowering your overall enmity levels.

Well I don't want to get into too much detail on this - but there are multiple ways to recover and conserve mp on this game, and perhaps that is where Paladins dissapointed with their abilities should instead focus on. It is quite effective at creating tons of hate.

The Paladin's real strength has always been his ability to heal and tank, and IMHO that is where players should put their focus on if they want to maximize the potential of their paladin.

If you just want to focus on holding threat and doing damage while other people keep you alive then there are better job options out there for that kind of play - monk being among them.

[Greatguardian]

You don't need to explain anything. Go ahead and work under the assumption I know all there is to know about the PLD job class. I can still tell you that cure cheating in this day and age is generally a waste of both time and MP. You gain significantly more Enmity overall by TP'ing and using your accumulated TP to launch Chant du Cygne (It should always outdamage Sanguine/Atonement) than you would interrupting your attack rounds for unnecessary cures.

I'm not saying a PLD shouldn't cure itself if it takes damage, but you are much better off avoiding taking damage in the first place (Utsusemi) and only curing when you actually do take damage (or someone else does). Blood tanking is only viable when you can realistically reduce the damage you take to the point where you are producing more average Enmity per second than you lose by taking damage.

[Dale]

You don't need to explain anything. Go ahead and work under the assumption I know all there is to know about the PLD job class. I can still tell you that cure cheating in this day and age is generally a waste of both time and MP. You gain significantly more Enmity overall by TP'ing and using your accumulated TP to launch Chant du Cygne (It should always outdamage Sanguine/Atonement) than you would interrupting your attack rounds for unnecessary cures.

I'm not saying a PLD shouldn't cure itself if it takes damage, but you are much better off avoiding taking damage in the first place (Utsusemi) and only curing when you actually do take damage (or someone else does). Blood tanking is only viable when you can realistically reduce the damage you take to the point where you are producing more average Enmity per second than you lose by taking damage.

You are missing my point.

My point is if you are wanting to focus on a job that concentrates on doing high damage and using utsusemi to avoid taking damage you are better off playing a different job. Paladin is not built to be a high-damaging ninja-like class, and we have too many people who are trying to turn the Paladin job into something it isn't.

If you feel healing is a waste of mp and don't like the heal/tank concept, then Paladin isn't the job for you, and that is most likely the source for your discontent.

Paladins are designed to be healers that tank. That is the whole concept behind the job. If you want to be a tank who relies on high damage and shadows to get the job done, there are other jobs better suited for it.

[Martel]

You are missing my point.

My point is if you are wanting to focus on a job that concentrates on doing high damage and using utsusemi to avoid taking damage you are better off playing a different job. Paladin is not built to be a high-damaging ninja-like class, and we have too many people who are trying to turn the Paladin job into something it isn't

Well, unfortunately, about the only way to make PLD reasonably useful at the moment, is to make it "something it isn't". And SE doesn't seem to mind the idea either, considering the delightful amount of excellent DD stats on our AF3.

If you feel healing is a waste of mp and don't like the heal/tank concept, then Paladin isn't the job for you, and that is most likely the source for your discontent.

He didn't say that curing was a waste of mp. He said the curing for enmity was a waste of mp and time. And he's right. It is. The CE modifier for cure enmity has been declining since lvl one. And it hasn't stopped. Only slowed in its rate of decrease. The more levels we gain, the worse curing becomes as an enmity tool.

Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

Notice the difference?

Melee dmg is twice as effective in the first place, is gained just sitting there hitting the mob, and doesn't cost mp. But, of course, no PLD would cure in +0 enmity, so lets work with that.

500 cure with +50 enmity, 468 CE.

Now, my TP build has +20 enmity in it(just as a side effect of DD stats, I'm not stacking enmity for DD, lol), so lets factor that into the melee dmg.

500 dmg +20 enmity, 750 CE. 468 vs 750. And one of these makes the mob dead sooner. And you can easily do 500 dmg in a single attack round, with good DD atmas and gear.

Not to mention, as soon as I get 100% TP and throw out a nice 3k'ish chant, we're looking at a spike of 3750 CE, and instantly capped VE. And if we were near the start of that fight, I'd throw up sentinel before that chant, putting it at 7500 CE. Out of a 10k CE cap...

Curing has its place. As a survival tool. And cure kits have their place, as a situational tool(unmelee'able/flying mob, don't kill it yet!, etc.) But DMG as a hate tool is vastly superior.

Paladins are designed to be healers that tank. That is the whole concept behind the job. If you want to be a tank who relies on high damage and shadows to get the job done, there are other jobs better suited for it.

Back in 2004, certainly. But the game has changed. Change with it, or be left behind. Unless SE makes drastic changes to PLD or the game itself, DD style, and often /nin, is the reality of the effective PLD. And if SE does make those changes, we will study them, and change with them. Will you?

then Paladin isn't the job for you

I would say, based on his accurate understanding of the current PLD, that PLD certainly is the job for him.

[Dale]

Well, unfortunately, about the only way to make PLD reasonably useful at the moment, is to make it "something it isn't". And SE doesn't seem to mind the idea either, considering the delightful amount of excellent DD stats on our AF3.


He didn't say that curing was a waste of mp. He said the curing for enmity was a waste of mp and time. And he's right. It is. The CE modifier for cure enmity has been declining since lvl one. And it hasn't stopped. Only slowed in its rate of decrease. The more levels we gain, the worse curing becomes as an enmity tool.

Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

Notice the difference?

Melee dmg is twice as effective in the first place, is gained just sitting there hitting the mob, and doesn't cost mp. But, of course, no PLD would cure in +0 enmity, so lets work with that.

500 cure with +50 enmity, 468 CE.

Now, my TP build has +20 enmity in it(just as a side effect of DD stats, I'm not stacking enmity for DD, lol), so lets factor that into the melee dmg.

500 dmg +20 enmity, 750 CE. 468 vs 750. And one of these makes the mob dead sooner. And you can easily do 500 dmg in a single attack round, with good DD atmas and gear.

Not to mention, as soon as I get 100% TP and throw out a nice 3k'ish chant, we're looking at a spike of 3750 CE, and instantly capped VE. And if we were near the start of that fight, I'd throw up sentinel before that chant, putting it at 7500 CE. Out of a 10k CE cap...

Curing has its place. As a survival tool. And cure kits have their place, as a situational tool(unmelee'able/flying mob, don't kill it yet!, etc.) But DMG as a hate tool is vastly superior.



Back in 2004, certainly. But the game has changed. Change with it, or be left behind. Unless SE makes drastic changes to PLD or the game itself, DD style, and often /nin, is the reality of the effective PLD. And if SE does make those changes, we will study them, and change with them. Will you?



I would say, based on his accurate understanding of the current PLD, that PLD certainly is the job for him.

I hate when people piecemeal my posts like this. I'm just going to reply to it all at once.

Paladins are plenty useful in there current state, and there really isn't much DD stuff on AF3. Most of it centers on defensive stats and has some nice accuracy bonuses as well, which is great for paladin tanks, since accuracy food really isn't an option for any paladin wanting to maximize their defense.

IMHO, the worst thing you can do to a Paladin is forget about your healing and pretend you are a ninja. That is probably the main reason so many people are unhappy with the job. And their AF3 in no way resembles this kinda of playstyle. There is a tiny bit of haste on it and some strength, but that's about it. It is deffinitely a defensive set, as it should be. Tons of HP and Mp also, stats which any good heal/tank will drool over

Curing is not a waste of mp for enmity. Not only does it create a ton of enmity, but it also restores your HP as well, so you get two things in one. And just because you are curing yourself doesn't mean you can't melee also - so basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing does not prevent you from meleeing or doing damage. That's just silly to think that. Obvioulsy a paladin meleeing and using weapon skills and curing on top of that is going to create a lot more enmity than a paladin who does nothing but melee and use weapon skills. That's the bottom line, and what i was pointing out. I never said a paladin should sheath his sword and just use cures and stop hitting the monster and using his weapon skills.

And the game hasn't changed in the respect you say it has since 2004. In fact I'd say Paladins far excel in their role as a healing tank than ever they did way back when in 2004.

And this was my point. If you don't like to cure yourself to create extra enmity while keeping yourself alive - Paladin just isn't the job you should play IMHO. If you want to blink tank and rely on maximizing your melee damage to create enmity and neglect your heals, you probably should be playing something else. That's why so many paladins at the moment are envious of monks and other blink tanks...because they are trying to be like monks or ninjas with plate armor on and it's just not working out for them as well as it is for jobs that are actually made for it.

Finally to close i'll just say this,
The Paladin is indeed a heal/tank, and that is a very accurate understanding of the job. We are not ninjas in plate armor. That is a very poor understanding of the job.

We just completely disagree with one another, so might as well leave it at that.

This job is awesome for players who want to maximize their ability to tank and keep themselves alive while doing it. It's what we actually excel at.

This job is not awesome for players who want to maximize their enmity by doing huge melee dps. You will always be overshadowed by other jobs if you attempt this, and that's why you see so many unhappy paladins.

We have way too many people playing paladin right now who would be far better suited playing as a warrior, monk, or even ninja.

[Martel]

I hate when people piecemeal my posts like this. I'm just going to reply to it all at once.

I'm not sure why this offends you so, but you'd best get used to it, cause its about to happen again. I'm not much of a writer, really. I find it easier to address things one thought at a time. And quoting the thought I'm addressing before hand means I don't have to paraphrase, or reference it before hand. I can just reply.

Well, I can at least try to address whole paragraphs if that makes you feel any better.

Paladins are plenty useful in there current state, and there really isn't much DD stuff on AF3. Most of it centers on defensive stats and has some nice accuracy bonuses as well, which is great for paladin tanks, since accuracy food really isn't an option for any paladin wanting to maximize their defense.

IMHO, the worst thing you can do to a Paladin is forget about your healing and pretend you are a ninja. That is probably the main reason so many people are unhappy with the job. And their AF3 in no way resembles this kinda of playstyle. There is a tiny bit of haste on it and some strength, but that's about it. It is deffinitely a defensive set, as it should be. Tons of HP and Mp also, stats which any good heal/tank will drool over

The reason many PLDs are dissatisfied isn't because they're playing the job wrong. It's because, no matter how they play, a large portion of the player base considers PLD useless. The howls of "Fix PLD! Fix PLD!" ringing through these forums, and most other forums, is a fair indication that PLD is not at the top of its game, much less in demand as a tank.

PLD AF3 isn't a defensive set, its a balanced set. Nearly every piece of it offers both offensive and defensive bonuses. The sole exception being the head which has a defensive/casting role. I would hardly call 12% haste a "tiny bit of haste". That's nearly half way to the haste cap in 3 pieces of gear. Personally, I TP in 4/5 Creed +2, and while you could argue about the body, the hands, feet and legs are best-in-slot TP gear. SE certainly did it right on the creed set. Now how does a set packed with DD stats not reflect a DD PLD playstyle? Having great TP gear with good defensive stats on it as well does even more to encourage and enable a PLD to play DD style.

And who the hell is pretending to be a NIN? Personally, I've hardly been on /nin recently, much less dual wielding. But I have an Ochain, and thus have other effective options that most PLDs do not.

Subbing nin, and/or DD'ing, doesn't mean we're ignoring our other capabilities, or pretending to be another job. It just means we use them only when necessary and appropriate.

Curing is not a waste of mp for enmity. Not only does it create a ton of enmity, but it also restores your HP as well, so you get two things in one. And just because you are curing yourself doesn't mean you can't melee also - so basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing purely for enmity, is a waste of time and mp. Note that 'purely' there. That means that you aren't already missing hp, thus the HP recovered is moot.

In order for cure to be cast purely for enmity, the use of a cure kit(or cheat, whatever name you prefer) is implied. You do know what that is right? In case you don't, as the misunderstanding in your post seems to imply, I will explain. A cure kit is when you use gear to first lower your max hp, then raise it up again, and fill the created gap by curing. Thus you weren't missing hp in the first place and the cure is cast only for the resulting enmity gain.

If you've been damaged, by all means cure yourself. I did state that curing has its place, as a survival tool. Curing for survival sake is a useful part of PLD. It's expected, and we haven't argued against curing to stay alive.

Melee attacks cannot process while casting a spell. Common knowledge, isn't it? Certainly, you can remain engaged to the mob while you cure spam, but every spell cast pecks holes in your DPS. Even a short spell like cure 4 will cost you a whole melee round. Even spamming you'll sneak a hit in here and there. But your over all DPS and WS rate takes a hit.

As for the two things at once, DD'ing not only generates excellent enmity, it does what we came here to do. Kill the mob, reap the rewards. and does it faster.

So basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing does not prevent you from meleeing or doing damage. That's just silly to think that. Obvioulsy a paladin meleeing and using weapon skills and curing on top of that is going to create a lot more enmity than a paladin who does nothing but melee and use weapon skills. That's the bottom line, and what i was pointing out. I never said a paladin should sheath his sword and just use cures and stop hitting the monster and using his weapon skills.

You have this backwards. A pld who is continuous interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob.

And the game hasn't changed in the respect you say it has since 2004. In fact I'd say Paladins far excel in their role as a healing tank than ever they did way back when in 2004.

I can't imagine in what respect you think I'm speaking that would honestly allow you to say that the game hasn't changed. PLD's role? To hear most people tell it it no longer even has one. Because nearly everything has changed. Even PLD itself. But more so, the enmity mechanics and situation that govern those roles.

The enmity modifiers for damage, dealt and taken. The cure mods. The levels of damage poeple are able to put out. The amount of damage people can survive. All of these have changed drastically.

Due to these changes, nearly any DD can be used as a tank, and survive. PLD's role. To hear most tell it, is to go change jobs. Which ironically is what you've been telling us to do.

Basically, PLD is not needed. There are very few, if any, mobs that can't be tanked by other jobs. And most of those jobs bring more utility(higher dmg, weakness procs) with them.

You call PLD a healer/tank.. but PLD can't fill the healer role alone on anything serious. Try PLD main healing on say.. Raja. I'd like to see a pld manage that without brewing or using fanatics/fools drinks. A WHM, or other additional support, will still be needed. And if you need a whm anyway, why not bring an tank that deals more dmg? Or has weakness procs that are needed?

And this was my point. If you don't like to cure yourself to create extra enmity while keeping yourself alive - Paladin just isn't the job you should play IMHO. If you want to blink tank and rely on maximizing your melee damage to create enmity and neglect your heals, you probably should be playing something else. That's why so many paladins at the moment are envious of monks and other blink tanks...because they are trying to be like monks or ninjas with plate armor on and it's just not working out for them as well as it is for jobs that are actually made for it.

I already addressed the cure, job, and job change issue in here I think. For the remainder..

Who said I wanted to blink tank? I like blood tanking. And thanks to Ochain I can do it effectively on most mobs. Shadows, for me, are a necessary evil. There are still mobs I'd need them on. Usually anything with a really dangerous additional effect on melee hit, en-doom, etc.

And who's trying to be a mnk or nin? I DD PLD style. Sword, shield, and 10 mobs feeding me TP. XD Although, dual wield has its place in DD as well. If additional defenses aren't needed, boost your DD.

Whoa.. I hit the character limit. Is this SE's way of telling me I'm long-winded? Splitting into 2 posts. I suppose that is one issue with quoting like I have been. Although its an issue I've never run into till now.

[Sagian]

Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

Notice the difference?

Yes, but how long does it actually take a PLD to do 500 points of mele damage or accumulate TP for a WS vs casting a Cure IV? When you start trying to crunch numbers like this, you have to take time into account. You also need to take into account the fact that the DD's are doing damage at the same time the PLD is.

Sure, your weapon skill may get hate, but if I let you take a couple hits, throw a Cure IV at you and then Provoke, guess who's going to have hate again... and if I happen to have the TP, throw in a WS for good measure.

Of course I'm assuming hate isn't capped for both of us and I'm talking about IT mobs here. Anything less is usually too soft and too quick to die to bother with.