Practical Soultions to Issues with RDM.

[Haldarn]

Agreed but its still a widely supported idea, something already a lot have gotten behind, and if we make it clear how we need/want it (perhaps make it into a charge system or something?) then we can have a better management of it.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at on page four. I'm in support of this and agree it might be an idea to thrash it out between the community to get it in a workable form (ie easy to implement and effective for the job).

As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it.

How about then this proposed idea of "self-buff to single-target party member enhancement transfer" is activated with TP rather than a JA with an unsatisfactory cooldown timer or an additional Charges system? That way it's still something you can do if you're back-line and not changing your staff (only a limited restriction for a single TP build), but encourages the quicker TP building performed whilst meleeing.

[Seriha]

I won't sit here and say there's a single way to pull it off, but a past idea of mine involved letting enspell damage build into a pool similar to Solace boosting divine nukes with Cures or even Cura being boosted by the WHM taking damage. In this case, I also wanted to create two styles, one pandering to a RDM wishing to be more offensive through boosting the potency of enfeebles and nukes, while the more defensive style would boost the potency and duration of all buffs.

For example, some people want Haste II. As a standalone spell, I don't want it because it does little to address RDM's overall issues. Would it be handy? Sure. Now, let's say with the above, having 75 points of Enspell damage built up would boost Haste to 20% potency with a 6 minute duration. That'll roughly translate to 3 good hits from a RDM with capped skill, be it T1s or T2s. From a grossly simplistic level, you could just have Enspell damage build points like DNC steps regardless of damage done. Either way, if you want the RDM's spells to make the party even better, the RDM can't just be chillin' in the back rarely exposing themselves to risk. Even if their hit-for-hit damage never competes with a WAR, they'll still want to be as best as possible while offering their supportive benefits brought about their engagement.

Now, the offensive end would function similarly, with a fully buffed Slow II being more like a Slow III if SE were to ever add it. My ideal when translating to nukes is to be close to a maxed magian staff in potency. As a result, the staves will still be better, but we're not so depressingly behind in damage if we opt to keep our TP generating weapon equipped, which also handles the problem of TP being lost when swapping that often cripples our hybrid style.

But the big point here is it has to be worth it. It has to do enough to offset arguments of poor damage and TP feed. It has to do enough to warrant a party slot. I still stand behind the belief the job needs gear better tailored for its diversity, and I'm not talking about watered down junk where you're better off having Uber Mage Armor and Uber Melee Armor anyway. If it's something a job needs to perform its role, don't hold back.

The only reason the above is likely to never happen is because it would require some genuine effort on SE's part to pull off. It while require them going through virtually every spell in RDM's arsenal and modify them to differ based on their "stance" chosen. I also noted increasing durations on the defensive side because once you're done doling out the buffs (even better with the +2 set), you can hop over to being more offensive until it comes time to rebuff.

Otherwise, I can go back in time and lament about how we wanted something similar to SCH's Immanence stratagem or Accession/Diffusion. Or how some of DNC's JAs would've been nice for us if the job didn't exist. But they do and they're not going anywhere. Overall, I have no interest in repeating RDM's old days as a pink mage, and become wary of that whenever backline adjustments are the sole point of interest with the assumption it would fix all the job's ills. RDM's melee game was an issue long before the cap increases. And while it's unfortunate it took other jobs growing more readily while RDM stagnated for people to share my sentiment that the job wasn't that awesome, some of the cards SE played (Enfeebling crashing as a consequence of solo abuse) were just salt on the wound.

[ManaKing]

but RDM can easily cap haste, can cap ACC, can hit ATK levels similar to other one handers, has a much smaller casting load thanks to AFv3 and higher fast cast tier.

Where did you get similar levels of atk when we have Bs and everyone else has As?

I won't argue on easily capping haste, because it's really not hard to figure out how to do it. But compared to other jobs it is actual effort unless you are content with a Zelus Tiara...which I'm not since you are wasting a slot on nothing but haste. Head Brisk and Brego are both much nicer versions of head pieces but require an Ephemeron or Aug'd Blood Scale Mail to get a decent TP set.


If you want to make me happy, go look at Rubeus Spats and then make all of RDM follow that mold.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Calmecac Trousers beats Rubeus unless you're having accuracy issues.

I won't argue on easily capping haste, because it's really not hard to figure out how to do it. But compared to other jobs it is actual effort unless you are content with a Zelus Tiara...which I'm not since you are wasting a slot on nothing but haste. Head Brisk and Brego are both much nicer versions of head pieces but require an Ephemeron or Aug'd Blood Scale Mail to get a decent TP set.


If you want to make me happy, go look at Rubeus Spats and then make all of RDM follow that mold.

Wasting a slot on just haste... seriously did you just write that...

[Mageoholic]

How about then this proposed idea of "self-buff to single-target party member enhancement transfer" is activated with TP rather than a JA with an unsatisfactory cooldown timer or an additional Charges system? That way it's still something you can do if you're back-line and not changing your staff (only a limited restriction for a single TP build), but encourages the quicker TP building performed whilst meleeing.

Thought about this TP thing today at work and I don't think it is a good idea, not the effect itself but horse shoeing the job into one role is restrictive. This would force people to melee a job, and not everyone likes to melee, in a sense it is a reverse of forcing people into a backline only role, instead it forces people into a front line only role in order to apply buffs.

Again it comes down to base principle, and at the root of it all is the fact we have some nice buffs that are unable to be cast, and some nice debuffs that are all or nothing or immune outright. In order to discuss new abilities or improved abilities RDM first needs its current abilities to work, when that happens more avenues will be open to the job, mostly because we will actually get a party slot based on preforming a role. From there we can find out what we need to be better in group play.

Getting invites based on the job being useful should be our first priority, streamlining that usefulness is something we do after, who knows there might not be a problem at all, at least from my number crunching we are looking at 1 minute every 5 spent casting buffs/debuffs, 20% is not that bad, it is a lot better then the 33% time spent at level 75, when we were still capable of providing healing, nuking and melee on top of buffing debuffing.

Where did you get similar levels of atk when we have Bs and everyone else has As?

Similar does not mean the same, it means it shares a likeness, I can break 600ATK on my RDM, I can also break 600 ATK on my PLD, I can cap haste on my RDM, I can cap haste on my PLD, I can cap ACC on my RDM I can cap ACC on my PLD. A skills are not that far ahead, 26 ATK is the difference from A+ to B, it is a marginal advantage.

But my PLD can't nuke, my PLD can barely heal, my PLD can't buff, my PLD can't debuff. So Ill happily call 398 Skill vs 424 skill balance, at least until my PLD can start shooting laser beams from its ass for 1.2K DMG.


Also Scat man...haste is statistically the best stat, and if gravity were to work on mobs we wouldn't have to worry about ACC basically ever. No job would really outside of natural skill, incidental dex and acc on gear, just the way it should be.

[Economizer]

at least until my PLD can start shooting laser beams from its ass for 1.2K DMG

Divine Emblem + Holy II.

[ManaKing]

Calmecac Trousers beats Rubeus unless you're having accuracy issues.




Wasting a slot on just haste... seriously did you just write that...

The item itself has a large variety of different stats that aren't overpowered when you put them together because they don't mult each other but it still allows you to have a lot of what you want. I'm not giving up my 'cac Trousers just because they make me look like an indian, much less how awesome they are.

And yes I did say waste a slot on only haste, when you could cap haste with other equipment and get more stats, like STR, DEX, atk, acc, or Store TP.

RDM is already missing good equipment. No reason to waste even more equipment that you do have because you are wasting a slot on something you could have had more stats on.

[ManaKing]

Also Scat man...haste is statistically the best stat, and if gravity were to work on mobs we wouldn't have to worry about ACC basically ever. No job would really outside of natural skill, incidental dex and acc on gear, just the way it should be.

Can't disagree on that, but I'm just saying that RDM has low Atk and Enspells don't work on WSs. Inferior by design isn't something I just say all the time, it's what's wrong with RDM right now. We don't have anything to make up for lack of higher tier spells or lower skill proficiency. They forgot to give us those. Thus why we are behind.

[Mageoholic]

RDM attack is no different then other 1 handers, and our gearing options are very similar, we have the same ACC for the most part (a difference 11) which means we are either all eating Mear (or buns) all eating pizza, or all eating sushi. RDM is statistically identical for the most part to other 1 handers. The biggest issue is that for swords we are dependent on CDC (being left off Vorpal, and to an extent Sanguine hurts) and are limited in our choice of daggers (RDM caps off I think at 41 D dagger, while even BRD can get the 50DMG DGRs with STR and ATK on them.)

This isn't a job issue really, this is SE being retarded and forgetting the RDM has 2 primary melee choices. Of course they will probably tell you its balance. One weapon requires an EMP to be useful, and the other is useful but has no solid dagger options other than maybe Twilight.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but a RDM doesn't need to gear any differently then other 1 handers, and we are all about the same place stat wise, and gear wise (sans weapons.)

and before you reply I mean to say when i type "no different" as arguing over a fraction of a % in damage increase is retarded. During the TP phase Enspell/Enspell II's put RDM over the top of other sword users and nearly on par with other dagger users, its in WSD we are limited (enspells not working, our access to stat specific equipment for WS mods on swords, and our daggers lacking the same base D as other users.) Then again we can technically gear swap to a 2K MB, if we bothered to skill chain at all anymore. Meaning we can technically do more damage over the course of a WS cycle than most jobs, but paper doesn't equal reality. Unfortunately SE knows that we have the ability to do this which is why you will likely not see RDM put on comparable gear and WS's to other sword users, or on daggers with other dagger users. It sucks, but its the direction we as a community chose.

But since SE has their Zerg hard on from ToAU still this will likely never change. Unless SE themselves make content require a steady methodical kill at which point SC's greatly increase kill speed (as seen in old distortion parties).

[Mageoholic]

Also to clarify the OP some.

I don't think RDM is in a (terribly) bad spot (it is still a great job), and this isn't intended solely for RDM fixes. This as I mentioned is in the same vein as Healing Skill allowing jobs with native healing magic skill to surpass those who are using it as a subjob, a /WHM or /RDM healing for the same HP as a main WHM or RDM with C4 is stupid.

It is equally stupid that a /WHM or /RDM can buff or debuff (with enough MACC which is abundant on BRD for example) as well as these jobs (for the most part I understand that some spells are going to land a bit stronger but we are talking minimal % difference).

This is what this idea is meant to convey, the fact that a job casting spells with half the skill of a main job is matching (or nearly) matching the potential of the main job.

/SCH is fine, and should allow support jobs the ability to get higher skill, it is fine because /SCH doesn't really have any buffs/debuffs worth mentioning.

The fact that certain buffs and debuffs are restricted is just a slap in the face, the fact that these buffs/debuffs (indirect buffs in the case of Gravity) are available on other jobs (and can stack with RDM spells) is just a kick in the balls.