dev1069 Phantom Roll Effect Adjustments feedback

[doctorugh]

There have been some comments from players mentioning that they don’t see the point of defense as a stat, so I’d like to go into some detail on it.

As defense increases over an enemy’s attack power, the amount of damage reduced gradually tapers off. If the enemy you are fighting is lower level and your defense is way higher, it becomes more difficult to gain large benefits even if you increase your defense.

In instances where your defense is reduced via an enemy action, where your character’s defense would normally be higher than an enemy’s attack power, and the gap between the two is narrowed, the amount of damage being reduced will start to vary largely. This shows that you’ll take more damage when your defense is lowered, giving meaning to the value of your defense.

Another easy way of feeling the effects of defense is to face off against an even match enemy and compare the damage received with your armor equipped and off.

Since the effects of defense increase as defense is stacked, the benefits are by no means small, so it would be really helpful if we could receive feedback with this in mind.

For reference, Mocchi provided some test data.

Setup

• Compared physical damage taken between the following situations when fighting warrior-type monsters that were 15 levels higher than the level 99 PLD/WAR (defense 460) used for testing.

Naked/with Defender active/with Defender active + food effects (black curry bun)

Results

• Naked (Defense 460): 245 damage
• Defender (Defense 575): 216 damage
• Defender + food (Defense 663): 197 damage

Depending on the situation, the numbers may not be the same, but this is simply intended to serve as reference.

I would be interested in the numbers beyond 663 defense, perhaps at 850 and 999(to better prove the point that gallants is useless). If the mobs attack is 663, then thats the bottom value that can be achieved (ie no sense in using gallant roll to push higher or /blu and use cocoon for that matter). Makes harden shell (100% def) ... not really worth anything either.

[SpankWustler]

Since people more eloquent than myself have focused on the problems with defense itself, I'll be brief.

Naked/with Defender active/with Defender active + food effects (black curry bun)

Because dealing damage is the most effective way to increase enmity in today's FFXI, this person has a far more effective method of damage mitigation than defense available. This person will never be targeted by a monster on which any effective damage-dealer is engaged.

[Motenten]

Naked (Defense 460): 245 damage

To add a technical quibble: I'm not sure how you're getting 460 defense while naked. As a Taru pld/war (lvl 99), I have 238 defense while naked. I assume you actually mean "fully armored".

• Naked (Defense 460): 245 damage
• Defender (Defense 575): 216 damage
• Defender + food (Defense 663): 197 damage

Ok, assuming a basic ratio function with level correction (and assuming it mirrors player attack level correction), we can solve that with a system of linear equations.

Level correction (+15 levels): +0.75
Base weapon damage: 133
Mob attack: 500


Now let's take a look at the effects of Defender and Berserk as the mob's level increases. For the attack side, I'll assume the mob has 500 defense and that the player has 500 attack as well (no food, and somewhat defensively geared).


First Defender:

Mob lvl   Player Dmg      Mob Dmg
100             -26%         -19%
101             -28%         -18%
102             -29%         -18%
103             -31%         -17%
104             -33%         -16%
105             -36%         -16%
106             -38%         -15%
107             -42%         -15%
108             -45%         -14%
109             -50%         -14%
110             -56%         -13%
111             -63%         -13%
112             -71%         -13%
113             -83%         -12%
114            -100%         -12%

The percentages are the change in damage done compared to not having Defender active. You'll see that by having Defender active against a level 100 mob, the attack that the player does drops by 26%, while the damage taken from being hit by the mob decreases by 19%.

As the mob's level increases, you'll see that the negative effects of the lowered attack scale up rapidly, such that by the time you're fighting a mob 15 levels higher than you, you're essentially doing no damage at all.

On the other hand, the value of the defense you're adding is also dropping. You're only reducing the damage the mob does to you by 12% by the time you're fighting a mob 15 levels above you.

Overall, the higher the level of the mob, the more detrimental the attack loss is, and the less valuable the defense gain is.


Now Berserk:

Mob lvl   Player Dmg      Mob Dmg
100              26%	      32% 
101              28%	      31% 
102              29%	      29% 
103              31%	      28% 
104              33%	      27% 
105              36%	      26% 
106              38%	      25% 
107              42%	      24% 
108              45%	      24% 
109              50%	      23% 
110              56%	      22% 
111              63%	      21% 
112              71%	      21% 
113              83%	      20% 
114             100%	      20%

And now we see essentially the same effects mirrored. The higher the level of the mob, the more valuable the attack boost of Berserk becomes, and the less detrimental the additional damage taken is. By the time you're fighting a mob 15 levels above you, you could use Berserk and put on 27% PDT (barely half the cap on PDT) and you'd be doing twice as much damage as without Berserk while taking as much damage as if you had Defender active.


As mobs reach even match, the relative defensive gain of Defender reaches its peak, where going from Berserk to Defender reduces damage taken by about 40%. It can arguably be considered useful against mobs that are within a few levels of the player, but its raison d'etre, reduction of damage taken from extremely high level mobs (the entire purpose around which pld is built), is shown to be largely an illusion.

If you look seriously at the above numbers, it becomes plainly obvious why players are largely indifferent to the idea of a defense boost. When it takes a 25% boost in attack to reduce damage by as much as a couple augmented Dark Rings, what's the point? You're losing a massive amount of damage output (Defender's attack penalty, defense food vs attack food, Gallant's Roll vs Chaos Roll, etc) for very little gain, that is *least* valuable against the very difficult mobs you're touting this as being useful for.



One could perhaps argue that the comparison should be made in terms of absolute gains and losses. After all, a 12% reduction on a 1500-damage attack can keep you alive, while a 12% reduction on a 50-damage hit is barely worth noting. And yes, if you consider it from that perspective, the reductions or increases in damage from Defender and Berserk can be considered static. That is, you get the same absolute increase or decrease in damage regardless of the mob's level.

In that respect, it could be considered the equivalent of Phalanx. A 25% increase in defense vs the sample mob is equivalent to a 29 point phalanx effect. Interestingly, considered as a phalanx-equivalent, it becomes -more- valuable the less defense you have. A DD with 300 defense would have damage reduced by 44 points per hit; a pld with 600 defense (ignoring the quirks of stacking percentage buffs) would have damage reduced by 22 points per hit.

It's also directly proportional to the base damage of the weapon the mob uses, so you could say that you get different phalanx values against mobs of different damage ratings, which maintains its relative value in all cases, whereas Phalanx itself is static and thus becomes exponentially more valuable the lower the base damage of the mob's weapon.



Given that consideration, treating it as a variant on a phalanx effect that scales up with mob damage, it's a decent option. In terms of the trade-offs involved, though (giving up an attack buff in order to gain a defense buff), the player usually loses far more than they gain.

[Byrth]

Ok, assuming a basic ratio function with level correction (and assuming it mirrors player attack level correction), we can solve that with a system of linear equations.

Level correction (+15 levels): +0.75
Base weapon damage: 133
Mob attack: 500

So Level correction applies as a bonus for attacking monsters as well? I didn't know!

[Yugl]

So Level correction applies as a bonus for attacking monsters as well? I didn't know!

I believe that was assumed, not asserted.

[Motenten]

So Level correction applies as a bonus for attacking monsters as well? I didn't know!

I believe that was assumed, not asserted.

Assumed, yes, however it's impossible to solve the equations for the damage values presented if there is -not- a level correction factor.

I also don't take any stance on the presumed 1.0 min mob cRatio, as the level correction factor makes that a non-issue for the content under discussion. In this case the player would need to have a defense of over 2000 before you'd even need to worry about whether that 1.0 floor existed.

[Nightfyre]

The feedback you've received has absolutely been made with that fact in mind... and Mocchi's data really only proves our point. Not trying to shoot the messenger here, but this isn't helpful. If the devs really felt that it would be informative after several pages in which the benefits and limitations of defense have already been expounded in detail, I have to admit I'm kind of insulted.

[Greatguardian]

Don't insult our intelligence by presuming that the players don't know how Defense works.

[Quetzacoatl]

Sorry Camate, but it's like Nightfyre said...this is stuff we already knew.

[Bayohne]

Hey guys,

Just as a reference, I wanted to point out that while you may know a lot about how defense functions, it doesn't mean that every one reading the forums does. So while something we post may not directly influence you or your understanding of something, we post to reach as many people as possible. Nothing we post is ever meant to "insult your intelligence" when we try and provide context for things.