dev1069 Phantom Roll Effect Adjustments feedback

[Huevriel]

Ran into the Tree for more Parry skillups to test out this roll as a follow up to the last two posts I put in this thread.
Gonna note, that I'm quite sure this was absolutely not the "intention" the dev's had developed new Gallant's Roll. But, if you read my first response in this thread, I was absolutely ecstatic and giddy at proposed Phalanx. Here are some numbers.

TL;DR: 75COR still trying to parry skill up. Change to Def roll makes no difference because it was only sort of meant for high defense jobs.

Defense: (75COR/37RDM) fighting against Even Matched Korrigan.
Equips alone: 256
+10 [vs. Plantoids Evolith]. The +10 never shows up on actual defense value when engaged with mob type. Also using -28% PDT in gear.
With Protect IV: 311
With Salted Fish: 397
With Bonused 11 Gallant's Roll: 489
With Phalanx from support job RDM

Damage received on average of 25 hits with Bonused 11 Roll: 25.12
Damage received on average of 25 hits without Gallant's Roll: 28.00
Proposed damage received if original effect was implemented: 0 (28.00 - 30)

Will try /BLU for Cocoon which should boost DEF to roughly 730 and try again.

Update:
Tried 75COR/37BLU with use of Cocoon.
Got DEF near 700. Fought EM Korrigan. Took more damage than without subjob Phalanx. /sigh. Gonna disregard Gallant's Roll and stick with good 'ol Regen/Refresh rolls on COR/RDM.

[Afania]

Take a look at the stats listed in the update notes for today. Either we've got a bad translation fail or we may have won this fight.

=EDIT=
False alarm. Defense. Enjoy your worthless roll, boys.

We plan on setting the value of the defense boost at around 30% when the highest number is rolled..

So where is our 30% def boost? Gallant's roll is nerfed, Save TP planning to be nerfed, and QD update/3rd roll still no where to be seen.

;(

Back to the topic, there may be a chance that this roll may be used in Legion if you're in a situation when PLD needs to hold the NM for some reason.

Edit: Nvm, just saw that 10% bonus.

[Seha]

So in the end you implemented the roll as defense instead of phalanx, despite ALL OF US saying that the latter was better. I would just ask you to stop claiming it's about your imaginary "feedback received", it's not, you're just doing whatever you want disregarding every bit of the real feedback.

[Greatguardian]

So in the end you implemented the roll as defense instead of phalanx, despite ALL OF US saying that the latter was better. I would just ask you to stop claiming it's about your imaginary "feedback received", it's not, you're just doing whatever you want disregarding every bit of the real feedback.

I think you're reading the wrong language forums tbh. They changed it from Phalanx to Defense in the first place because there was supposedly "a lot of feedback about it" and people asking for Defense. I certainly don't see that on the English forums, do you?

Sure, we recognized that Phalanx was only situationally decent, but I'm fairly certain that our preferred alternative was PDT.

[Motenten]

So in the end you implemented the roll as defense instead of phalanx, despite ALL OF US saying that the latter was better. I would just ask you to stop claiming it's about your imaginary "feedback received", it's not, you're just doing whatever you want disregarding every bit of the real feedback.

Also, to be fair, a defense bonus is more effective than phalanx would ever be against high level mobs. Phalanx gets more powerful the weaker the mob gets, while defense and PDT get more effective the stronger the mob gets.

And I'll also admit, it's easier to get a given amount of damage reduction in gear via PDT than it is via defense. For mobs like Ig-alima, you'd need something like +50 defense to equate to 5% PDT; how many rings or neck pieces can you get with +50 defense on them? Given that we're still capped at 50% PDT (aside from Burtgang), we'd lose more by having a PDT roll and trying to fill gear with defense than vice versa.

The main issue is still the elephant in the room, though: how do you hold hate when you're geared exclusively for defense?

[Greatguardian]

That's why I would have preferred a PDT roll tbh. Keep maxed Haste on all/most jobs even in PDT sets, and decreased white damage taken even in TP/WS sets. Hell, a Bravura WAR could possibly never change out of their TP set if they had a PDT roll.

The way I see it, anything worth defending against is generally going to cap or be near capped cRatio on me if I'm actually doing worthwhile damage to it (and if I'm not, then I don't have hate so moot point), so gains from Defense will be at their lowest.

[Motenten]

Indeed. And giving it more thought, for the Ig-alima case, a DD would need at least 408 defense before a +30% roll (11 w/pld) would even -begin- to have any effect on damage taken, and very few DDs will have their defense much above that even with Berserk down. For the purpose of being useful for everyone, PDT and phalanx are both more useful to most players.

Though I suppose that may be the point -- they want a roll that will help the pld, but not necessarily make it easy to yet again simply replace the pld with another DD. If it were a PDT roll, you could ignore pld and continue with using war/mnk/sam/etc 'tanks'. If it were a phalanx roll it would be somewhat useful for everyone, but not as useful for dealing with extremely strong/high level enemies.

So, again, it works for the (probable) intended purpose, but the intended purpose isn't functionally useful until something is done with the enmity system, or at least pld's ability to generate hate.

[Kyotomi]

Gallant's Roll, incorrect % listed? Not applying correctly?
Been running test for past the past hour in Whitegate.

SE stated
"11 +20%
Bonus +10% "
-----------------
DEF 401
Testing on rolls 11

DEF 480, Should be 401*1.2= 481.2 -1.2
With PLD
DEF 520 Should be 401*1.3= 521.3 -1.3
---------------------
Base with Defender DEF 501
Testing on rolls 11

DEF 581, Should be 501*1.2=601.2 -20.2
With PLD
DEF 620 Should be 501*1.3=651.3 -31.3
++++++++++++

Beside the slight 1.5def avg off, base def math added correctly.
Testing change when Defender is up. It seems the rolls only applies to base DEF (gear only) without buffs.
I did not try with Protect and Atma buffs. But so far, it isnt looking good. If I have some time, I will update new numbers.
"Yinnyth" Stated
"PLD roll probably stacks additively with defender, not multiplicative."

Correct, I didn't think about it last night, but math wise, it did add up...

Base DEF 401 Defender 25% + Roll at 20% = 401*1.45 or 1.55 for bonus... Which ya... blows...
Hopefully someone from Dev team will notice this and change it, because so far it really does not help with anything.

Btw if I recall, so far all other cor's rolls are additionally......not multiplicative

[Yinnyth]

I ran a quick test myself tonight on jackpot (XI) roll. Naked, I had 162 defense, and idle I had 369 defense before the roll. After the roll, I had 194 naked and 442 in idle gear, which is the expected values for a 20% boost in defense. So it seems to me that it's working as intended.

That being said, why does PLD roll give less defense than DRK roll gives attack?

[Chamaan]

Stop talking about Chaos Roll being higher before they emergency maint and nerf it down to Gallant Roll level.