Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Runespider]

The new ticket idea honestly says quite a lot, they are really trying hard to push us back to LS run content as it used to be and away from pug stuff. The ticket system favours a LS run system where you do the NMs set aside for peoples wants and not the ones you capped on gear from.

That's the only reason I can see for such a system when it would of been easier to do something far better, ie. trade any of an certain NMs drops to an NPC to build up points for the rarer of the items that nm drops.

[Mahoro]

A full alliance of 18 people getting more in a lowman-geared level 90 event than a level 99 alliance-based event? No way.

6Mil/Marrow is laughably cheap. Why? Because of the god damned opportunity cost. That's how these things are priced. That's why no one will sell them and no one will buy them. The opportunity cost you'd have to incur to farm ADL means that each marrow would be worth an easy 20M+, essentially costing relic holders another 100M+ (another full relic) to go from 95-99. Whether they pay that out or do the event themselves makes no difference, it's still 100M down the drain.

Why you're somehow unable to see that and insist on arguing with everyone here is beyond me.

I do see that. 6 million was just a number I threw out arbitrarily to say that if I could tell the relicholders to buy it, I would. But they can't, as you say, so I am trying to come up with ways to actually do SE's trial, since it is clearly not being changed now. Your point is 17 people can make 2-4 million (34-68 million) for each time they sacrifice a Dyna run. My rebuttal is that (i) not everyone wants to spend their Dyna time hardcore farming gil or being forced to do so, (ii) they are potentially rewarded in other ways, including help with Arch Bosses in other zones or DKP for other events, (iii) "opportunity cost" is ultimately subjective based on your specific activities, and (iv) boiling everything down to opportunity cost goes against the spirit of other events in the game where you endlessly waste manpower hours when you could be farming gil, or every single event ANYONE has EVER attended in the past where the group wasn't giving you gil for time.

I could say the same things about the perpetuity of this argument.

[Raksha]

I could say the same things about the perpetuity of this argument.

I think your lawyer training is preventing you from letting this drop, maho!

At the end of the day ppl who want to gil farm dynamis will do so, and those who don't will tag along to ADL for DKP/swords.

Do we really want everyone farming dynamis every day? Do we really want people to make 11 mules so that you can literally farm dynamis 24 hours per day? (inb4 strawman)

If the opportunity cost loss is too high, then maybe we should be selling marrows for 54M (18ppl x 3M lost).

[Mahoro]

Rak, I think some people won't be happy unless SE puts in a ticker in the menu compensating them with gil for every second they are in the game. Why stop at Dynamis, why not put the ticker in Abyssea? Quick, the time anybody is in Abyssea and NOT farming Tiger King Hides is a waste of gil.

Geez, I'm a lawyer and it's MY profession that usually says "time is money."

[Frost]

You owe me 135,000 Gil.

That's the time/money I wasted reading your posts!

I kid. I kid.

You make an interesting counter-point. If you do break the game down too simply you do run into that "Well anyone not doing <MAXIMUM GIL FARMING METHOD X> is wasting their time" when the reality is hey, sometimes it's just fun to do different content.

[Karbuncle]

You owe me 135,000 Gil.

That's the time/money I wasted reading your posts!

I kid. I kid.

You make an interesting counter-point. If you do break the game down too simply you do run into that "Well anyone not doing <MAXIMUM GIL FARMING METHOD X> is wasting their time" when the reality is hey, sometimes it's just fun to do different content.

I agree, ADL would be fun the first 2-3 Times... But how about the 8th? the 13t? the 20th?

Think about it from this point, I know multiple people with relics, some i do consider a friend and would help... But I can only have fun with ADL so much >_>

Eventually the fun of a new event burns out.

[Mahoro]

I completely agree. I am starting to get PTSD with some of the Voidwatch mobs lol.

In any event, I hope SE lowers the trial requirements for Relic 99 some more to fit more in line with their representations to the playerbase.

[Greatguardian]

You owe me 135,000 Gil.

That's the time/money I wasted reading your posts!

I kid. I kid.

You make an interesting counter-point. If you do break the game down too simply you do run into that "Well anyone not doing <MAXIMUM GIL FARMING METHOD X> is wasting their time" when the reality is hey, sometimes it's just fun to do different content.

Except I've said in pretty much every post on the topic that fun is left out of the equation. I do plenty of inefficient shit because it's fun. Fun has its own value.

Doing shit purely to obtain an item or a profit, however, necessitates quantification.

@Maho, There is no "spirit" to old endgame. If you were doing things for the sake of compensation, and you were getting less out than you were putting in, then you were wasting your time. It doesn't have to be gil, but it still boils down to some currency which can be enumerated in gil. The fact that people did it anyways despite not finding it enjoyable was more a testament to them being uninformed than anything else.

If you're still trying to bring up the fact that many shells had DKP that paid you by the hour despite the fact that many events had variable rates of profitability, then you are talking about a poorly designed system. You're a lawyer. Would you work 5 days a week at $12/hr if you had to flip burgers on monday and wednesday but had court dates on tuesday, thursday, and friday? Hell no.

Opportunity cost for each activity is objective. X-hours doing X-thing produces X-gil return. People are smart to group up if and only if the amount of gil per man-hour they are able to obtain in X-hours doing X-groupThing is greater than the amount of gil per man-hour each could make solo. You keep using the word subjective, as if the numerical values change based on how you look at it. That is not the case. If time in Dynamis is worth 500k/manhr, then time in Dynamis is worth 500k/hr. If time killing ADL is worth 200k/manhr, then ADL is worth 200k/manhr. That is objective.

You are trying to argue that the value of someone's time can be lowered if they choose not to participate in some events. This is not the case. Their time is still worth 500k/hr. They are simply underpaying themselves, and/or being underpaid, if they choose to earn less. This is a video game. The worth of your time can be consciously determined by the player, as they are capable of freely generating goods at market value.

Saying that someone may not use their time does not make their time worth less. "Some profit is better than no profit" only applies so long as there is no higher profit that can be obtained with the same or fewer resources. Some profit is better than no profit, but 500k/manhr profit is better than <200k/manhr profit and both constitute the exact same allocation of resources - they both require entering Dynamis and killing shit. Settling for less money when doing the same work is stupid and no one will want to do it.

[Mahoro]

Opportunity cost for each activity is objective. X-hours doing X-thing produces X-gil return. People are smart to group up if and only if the amount of gil per man-hour they are able to obtain in X-hours doing X-groupThing is greater than the amount of gil per man-hour each could make solo. You keep using the word subjective, as if the numerical values change based on how you look at it. That is not the case. If time in Dynamis is worth 500k/manhr, then time in Dynamis is worth 500k/hr. If time killing ADL is worth 200k/manhr, then ADL is worth 200k/manhr. That is objective.

You are trying to argue that the value of someone's time can be lowered if they choose not to participate in some events. This is not the case. Their time is still worth 500k/hr. They are simply underpaying themselves, and/or being underpaid, if they choose to earn less. This is a video game. The worth of your time can be consciously determined by the player, as they are capable of freely generating goods at market value.

Saying that someone may not use their time does not make their time worth less. "Some profit is better than no profit" only applies so long as there is no higher profit that can be obtained with the same or fewer resources. Some profit is better than no profit, but 500k/manhr profit is better than <200k/manhr profit and both constitute the exact same allocation of resources - they both require entering Dynamis and killing shit. Settling for less money when doing the same work is stupid and no one will want to do it.

It is stupid in your eyes because you have boiled down anybody's actions in Dynamis to 500k/hr. You have made the opportunity cost choice for them. You have pre-decided what their time is worth based on what your time is worth and what you do in Dynamis (likely farm for a relic or HMP's).

Our argument here is well-trod ground. Do a Google search using the terms "opportunity cost" and "subjective." Here's what you will find on the first page of results:

Opportunity cost is the cost of any activity measured in terms of the value of the next best alternative foregone (that is not chosen). It is the sacrifice related to the second best choice available to someone, or group, who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices

Opportunity cost is subjective. Only the chooser can determine the most attractive alternative for itself from its special point of view. We each have a different list of things valued in decline from top to bottom due to our different aims of life and philosophy. Even for the same activity or good or service, different individuals take it with different opportunity cost.

Like beauty, opportunity cost is in the eye of the beholder. It is subjective. Only the individual making the choice can identify the most attractive alternative.

To obtain a satisfactory solution to the economic problem of the nature of costs, Professor Wiseman urges a “return to consistent development of the subjective cost tradition.” By contrast, the dominant “orthodoxy” treats opportunity costs as essentially “objective.” This belief in objective costs leads to a misunderstanding about the nature of the resource-allocation process and to inflated claims by economists as to their competence as “social engineers.” A better approach is to see opportunity-cost decisions as the subjective valuations of individuals.

Ultimately, I see no reason to argue any further as our viewpoints seem to have been debated by economists for years. I will agree to disagree. As Raksha said above, the people who hardcore farm Dyna gil will continue to do so, and the people who don't will likely help the relicholders. Don't make their choice for them.

[Greatguardian]

You can't apply real-world opportunity cost to FFXI opportunity cost. There are no conflicting life goals and philosophies. It's a video game. You have fun, you make friends, and you obtain loot. That loot does not become more or less attractive based on how you feel about monetary possessions or moral/ethical dilemmas. It is simply loot. The population is already distilled to such a point where the minute differences in perceived value of items become negligible as we are all players of the same video game and all generally agree on the worth of X, Y, and Z pieces of loot.

500k/hr is an approximate average for how much a farming session in Dynamis is worth for a solo player. My time is worth even more than that. Other people's time is worth less. Very few people capable of killing ADL in the first place are in a position where their time is worth less than ADL is worth.

I'm sure people will still do this trial. I also know that no one who knows the value of their time will enjoy it one bit. You'll be lucky to crank out 3-4 99s before people get sick of it. Have fun finishing the rest without properly compensating people.