Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Unctgtg]

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

[Natasha]

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

Yeah, I find it to be unlikely though...

[Greatguardian]

I'm not going to quote that wall of text but holy shit you're dense if you think there's no opportunity cost involved in giving items to members in exchange for DKP instead of selling them for gil. "But guuuuuuuyyyyys, I wasn't going to sell it anyways" doesn't change the objective value of any item or amount of time.

If an Ebody is worth 5M then it's worth 5M whether you sell it or give it to a shell member. You are giving them assets totaling 5 Million gil, typically at the expense of "DKP". Their DKP, which is a currency proportional to time invested, has a gil value. When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP. It's just money with a different name.

[Atomic_Skull]

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that they haven't. I'm probably wrong that SE would ignore NAs in favor of JPs, I know crazy talk right?

[Mahoro]

I'm not going to quote that wall of text but holy shit you're dense if you think there's no opportunity cost involved in giving items to members in exchange for DKP instead of selling them for gil. "But guuuuuuuyyyyys, I wasn't going to sell it anyways" doesn't change the objective value of any item or amount of time.

If an Ebody is worth 5M then it's worth 5M whether you sell it or give it to a shell member. You are giving them assets totaling 5 Million gil, typically at the expense of "DKP". Their DKP, which is a currency proportional to time invested, has a gil value. When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP. It's just money with a different name.

First, ad hominem on the "dense" shit.

Second, I never said there wasn't an opportunity cost, just that it varies for each person to such a degree that it isn't useful to look through that lens for everything you do in game. The 17 other people who go on an ADL run don't necessarily equal 17 * 2 mill if those people weren't going to farm currency anyway, and if you weren't going to force them to do so in lieu of ADL. You aren't giving them a Hobson's choice. Reimbursing with DKP or other rewards should be sufficient, and they will know that another event will benefit THEM next. That is the only way groups will accomplish these trials. SE misled the playerbase into thinking the majority could do it, but only a fraction of the playerbase would probably want DL/ADL drops so PUGs won't work by and large.

Third, any shell worth its salt doesn't reimburse gil for time in an exact ratio simply because different events are more "lucrative" than others. I agree when you say DKP is "money with a different name." My point was that it is not useful to distill every event in game down to a gil value because LS events vary widely and (as I keep saying in my posts) some items do not have a viable market alternative. Yes, "When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP." No, you aren't paid in opportunity cost of what you gave up in gil, because it varies by person and no group is going to pay you for your time that way outside of merc situations.

Back in the day, when LS's helped their BLM's get Novio Earrings, many manpower hours were expended and one person walked away with a 15 mill item, and perhaps another with a Love Torque. Would you demand an opportunity cost of 2 mill from the LS for your "time" in helping because you could have farmed that amount of gil gardening or goldsmithing? No, it's exactly as you said, you took the DKP and knew that another event would benefit you down the road. There is no difference here for shells that do ADL. The only reason you are seeing a difference here is that you can directly measure the "net loss" from your individual (read: subjective) activities in Dynamis far more easily than other events.

[Unctgtg]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

[Greatguardian]

Your post exemplifies the fatal flaws of many "Old style" linkshells, and why the vast majority of the game's best players now want nothing to do with them whatsoever. Fact is, we wised up. We learned to appreciate the value of our time. If we were in a linkshell to work, and we weren't getting properly compensated, then the linkshell was taking more from us than it was giving out. Whether it's a matter of efficiency, or poor/tilted distribution systems, people got tired of selling themselves off for less than they were worth.

Keep in mind that I'm completely ignoring "fun". If people have fun doing these things, they should do them. But I am working under the assumption that these things are not fun, as ADL is not fun, and people are doing work for DKP so that they can buy some reward later.

In this case, it is straight up bad practice for a linkshell to do an event where they spend more in man-hours than they obtain in loot on average. If Odin costs you 2x18 = 36 Man-hours at an average cost of 500k/manhour and you average out 15M per Odin in Abjurations, then you're much better off not doing Einherjar at all and letting your members buy Ebodies/Mbodies/etc from other shells. So yes, some events are more lucrative than others. But frankly, that's not important. If the linkshell makes more in profit than they put in in man-hours, they make a net profit. If they don't, they shouldn't be doing the event.

The real issue when it comes to large linkshells in the difference of the worth of any individual member's man-hour. A good player can easily push 500k+/manhour, but a shit player may be sitting on 0 or 10k average. People still made linkshells for horribly inefficient events because it allowed them to make a net profit at the expense of the rest of their shell. When I'm worth 500k/manhour and Joe Shmoe is worth 10k/manhour, and he makes a linkshell with me to do an event that pays out 250k/manhour, Joe is making a huge profit while I'm sitting there wasting my time for him. This is why linkshells were popular and kept doing these "variably lucrative" events even though the members did not enjoy it. Linkshell events were FFXI socialism at its finest. Everybody's work was worth the same amount, even if it wasn't.

Again, I'm leaving out fun. If the fun of the event and the people is worth the loss in net gil to you, by all means do it. That's what I do, personally. But ADL is not fun. You are not recouping fun on that gil you lose. All you have then is the numbers.

[Mahoro]

While I understand your viewpoint more now, and sympathize with it to an extent, you are playing the wrong game if you boil everything down to your worth in manhours and use that to judge whether to participate in an event (especially because not everything has a market alternative). I hesitate to use the hackneyed phrase "don't hate the playa, hate the game," but I can't think of anything more appropriate. Most of the game is a grind. I could have made reams of gil farming when I was spamming Akvan for Heka Kalasiris, but I went ahead and did the event because I wanted the gear, not the gil. Most people who play this game do not weigh their choice of activities based on individual manhours to gil ratio.

I would submit that you "wised up" because of FF in 2012, which is a different creature from FF in 2005. These days, most stuff can be lowmanned, almost EVERYTHING has a market alternative, and you can make scads of gil from just spamming JA's in Dynamis. But even today, if you were to go after Voidwatch and/or Legion stuff, you would need to sacrifice your "worth in time/gil" to mindlessly spam stuff because unfortunately that is what most of the endgame is now. Abyssea was a flash in the pan where the gear grew on trees and you could literally measure the effort you put in resulting in rewards put out.

As for fun, hell most people in my shell last night had fun when they chose the right clone and we killed ADL, and wow something actually DROPPED (from Tome NM's too, which will be liquidated for the LS bank). They enjoyed the change of pace from endless Logwatch.

[Runespider]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Bolded the important part. We never really expected anything else in the past..the amount of complaints we gave on the same issues over and over that they totally ignored.. lol, then new guys came in and amazed us by listening and giving us everything we wanted. Now it's back to the old management, not only will the next update still bring the horrible new trials but all new things to rage about too with Legion and whatever else.

The people in charge now operate under the "we know best" rule and there is no changing them as was the case before Abyssea with what they they did and with how they ran FFXIV (and blamed the players for not getting the game to the point they had to be fired for it to change lol). That is the mentality of the people we have running the show here now, they will not be moved on their ideals under any circumstances...even if it kills the game (as seen with FFXIV, they near killed it rather than listen to what players wanted).

[SpankWustler]

But ADL is not fun.

Fun is subjective, it could be fun for somebody!



















And I hope I never meet that person, because he or she is probably not well.