Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Unctgtg]

Luckily, assaults can be discussed in a thread about that topic.

On topic for this thread:

To be completely fair, there may come a time where a perfect strategy for ADL is formed out and the fight becomes nothing but a minor nuisance. In that case, five items wouldn't be horrible.

However, I don't think we should bank on that fact, because in the event ADL remains a permanent ass, five items per person, per relic is going to be murder on a LS's schedule and members.

Not to mention that most LSs with relics will be hording the pop location. So change it SE.

[Khajit]

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

[Mahoro]

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

[Greatguardian]

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

Except opportunity cost is a perfectly good reason to look at something when it's being done for a product rather than for fun. There is a reason many shells did not bother with HNM camping, and no it had nothing to do with bots. It was simply a horrid waste of time after a certain scale. An 18-man HNMLS may be on standby for 3 hours for a shot at 1 Ebody, but another 18-man LS could use those same 3 hours (54 man-hours) to accumulate enough gil to buy 2-3 Ebodies.

[Khajit]

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

People aren't exactly lining up for sagasingers here and dynamis is a HUGE opportunity cost. This isn't like missing out on a bc20 or a vw run that probably wouldn't drop anyway. This a cumulative loss of 2 mil+ a person x 17 (not counting the person who gets the drops for relic)
per run.

[Mahoro]

People aren't exactly lining up for sagasingers here and dynamis is a HUGE opportunity cost. This isn't like missing out on a bc20 or a vw run that probably wouldn't drop anyway. This a cumulative loss of 2 mil+ a person x 17 (not counting the person who gets the drops for relic)
per run.

I'm not by any means supporting this trial. I don't relish the idea of farming ADL for a year or two down the road for the relicholders in my LS. But as I said, can't boil everything down to opportunity cost because every event you do in the game where someone is standing around to help someone else out (even during average LS event) can be reduced to a gil amount. It's a non-starter argument. It assumes all 17 people would be farming gil if not for the event. It assumes everyone WOULD have entered Dyna that day if not for the relicholders. It assumes NOBODY is farming currency for the ally simultaneously to building an ADL pop. It assumes people aren't after 1 or more Arch boss drops. Simply put, it assumes way too much. Why limit your gil farming to a 2-hour Dyna event? Why not spend every waking moment online farming bee chips? Quick, the time you are posting while waiting for that VW PUG to gather is time you could be farming Tiger King Hides.

When drops for sea torques were terrible and people camped Ix'Drg and some of the more time consuming jailers, an entire LS was lucky to have walked away with one virtue or, worse, nothing. Yet it was done. I hate farming sea, yet as a SH in my LS I helped run sea events because people wanted the gear. And yeah, we did it when it was very clear how the chips would fall in the DKP and only one person would walk away with a Torque (or a Novio, or insert-your-own-drop). Yes, I am aware that the difference between farming sea and entering Dyna is that one isn't "giving up" money by entering sea. See paragraph above though.

Also, GG's points re: HNM camping being a waste of time and product/fun idea are subjective. Objectively, these events were done. We aren't in 2005 here. You are making a value judgment on a known phenomenon that happened years ago. It's a phenomenon I'm glad I wasn't involved in hardcore, but not every shell that camped HNM's would have sold that desired drop to another LS no matter how many manhours you expended to pay its price tag.

[Nynja]

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

didnt kirshy run the numbers on this, back at the 20 ADL drop, on average you'd farm enough currency for half a relic by the time you got all your ADL's done?

[Greatguardian]

Also, GG's points re: HNM camping being a waste of time and product/fun idea are subjective. Objectively, these events were done. We aren't in 2005 here. You are making a value judgment on a known phenomenon that happened years ago. It's a phenomenon I'm glad I wasn't involved in hardcore, but not every shell that camped HNM's would have sold that desired drop to another LS no matter how many manhours you expended to pay its price tag.

Are you being intentionally dense? The point that doing HNMs was a net loss for many shells is an objective stance. The fact that people did it in the first place indicates that they enjoyed the content to some degree, or just didn't know better.

Objectively? Farming gil and buying drops was better for a hell of a lot of stuff. Still is. But unless some people find Arch Dynamis Lord super fun and thrilling and totally worth doing regardless of the drops, you're going to have to weigh people's proclivity towards the event against the opportunity cost they incur by doing it. Every relic taken 95-99 is essentially another 75 Relic that could have been built from scratch.

You're also completely convoluting the issue. It's not a matter of people entering Dynamis or not entering Dynamis. They already entered Dynamis. The opportunity cost being weighed is what they're doing after entering Dynamis. They're there. They have a choice between farming ADL and farming currency. Farming ADL means not farming nearly as much currency. That is a loss.

[Mahoro]

Are you being intentionally dense? The point that doing HNMs was a net loss for many shells is an objective stance. The fact that people did it in the first place indicates that they enjoyed the content to some degree, or just didn't know better.

Or that they did stuff in the game that benefited the one or two over the many, in return for similar favors being done for them or for LS DKP. The fact that the game shifted to the point where you are distilling everything down to its opportunity cost (or more specifically, "how much gil is this time costing me?") says more about player temperament these days than anything else. At this point, it is clear SE isn't changing the trial, likely just the number of drops. I may not like the trial myself, but Hell, I'm willing to give it a go in my own LS.

Regarding the HNM scene being a "net loss", it's still subjective. You are neglecting the argument in my previous post that most HNMLS did not sell the drops they were camping until most, if not all, of their LS was capped on the gear. You are viewing the HNM scene from circa 2007-2008, where LS's affirmatively camped the Kings for the express purpose of making gil from people who wanted to buy the drops. However, back in the early days of Kings, the HNMLS were botting/competing over claims to gear their LS and "wasting" all that time camping because they felt they had no choice. Doing HNM wasn't a "net loss" for these shells because all the farming in the world wouldn't have bought them their E. Bodies. It was the nature of the game. Shells competed fiercely, and some would rather have CFH'd the King or let abjurations hit the floor than dare sell to a competing LS. Marrow won't be any different for those groups that do it. The secondary market will be near-nonexistent as most Marrow generated will stay intra-group. The shells that DO undertake this trial won't consider it a "net loss" because there will likely be no viable market alternative.

Objectively? Farming gil and buying drops was better for a hell of a lot of stuff. Still is. But unless some people find Arch Dynamis Lord super fun and thrilling and totally worth doing regardless of the drops, you're going to have to weigh people's proclivity towards the event against the opportunity cost they incur by doing it. Every relic taken 95-99 is essentially another 75 Relic that could have been built from scratch.

Sure, a Relic that will never be 99 if nobody ever actually does this trial. I am not denying the statistics that you could make another 75 Relic for the time and manpower involved in making a 99 Relic, but if we are really comparing timesinks here, why upgrade ANY weapon? Might as well compare the time and manpower hours involved in getting an Empy to 90 to the time it would take another Empy to be built from scratch for the people who help you, or other things in-game they could be doing WHILE helping you. I actually agree with you that people will weigh their proclivity toward the event against its downsides. Ultimately, I feel that SE misrepresented this trial to their playerbase since a majority of the 95 Relicholders will not finish this.

You're also completely convoluting the issue. It's not a matter of people entering Dynamis or not entering Dynamis. They already entered Dynamis. The opportunity cost being weighed is what they're doing after entering Dynamis. They're there. They have a choice between farming ADL and farming currency. Farming ADL means not farming nearly as much currency. That is a loss.

Again, assumes those are the only two goals for someone entering Dynamis, or that they care about hardcore farming currency. I'm not convoluting the issue, I'm pointing out assumptions inherent in the argument that 17 other people are "wasting" 2 mill. Perhaps 4-5 of the people in the ally are relicholders who want to lot Marrow. Perhaps another 3-4 people are helpers who don't step into Dynamis regularly and are only doing so because they get DKP for a LS event. Perhaps another 1-2 people want a chance to lot on Sagasinger. You are looking at everything in terms of pure gil loss, and declaring the event DOA because it is literally taking gil out of your pocket. And that's fine for your goals. I wouldn't force those people in my LS to come on an ADL run. I am saying that if everybody viewed every event in the game through that lens, there would be no "utility" to doing most things when they could just be spending every waking moment in game farming gil. But some activities are done for gear, not gil.

[Insaniac]

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

Using conservative estimates and assuming people duo farm instead of solo since not everyone has a solo job leveled, 18 people could farm enough currency for a new relic in about 8 days. One day longer than it would take to finish the ADL trial assuming a 75% win rate.

Conservative
9 groups of 2 x 200 currency = 1800 currency per day
highest possible relic requirement not including the final 3k 15300/1800= 8.5 days

Realistic
9 groups of 2 x 270 currency = 2430
15300/2430 = 6.29 days

Possible but not likely
18 solo well geared BST or DNC x 175 currency = 3150
15300/3150 = 4.85 days

This is all assuming no white procs.