Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Mahoro]

You can't apply real-world opportunity cost to FFXI opportunity cost. There are no conflicting life goals and philosophies. It's a video game. You have fun, you make friends, and you obtain loot. That loot does not become more or less attractive based on how you feel about monetary possessions or moral/ethical dilemmas. It is simply loot. The population is already distilled to such a point where the minute differences in perceived value of items become negligible as we are all players of the same video game and all generally agree on the worth of X, Y, and Z pieces of loot.

Yes, but not all agree on how to use Dynamis time, and therein lies a conflicting goal/philosophy:

Example A: LS member wants an Avesta Bangles.
Your solution: Pay 6 people 2-4 million each in "Dynamis opportunity cost" to farm an Arch Angra Mainyu pop and kill it. Total price: 12-24 million multiplied by however many Mainyu pops it takes for Bangles to drop. Also assumes 6 people can kill it.
My solution: LS mage helps out on ADL. Relicholders help on Mainyu. Rinse/repeat till Bangles drop. Total price: 0 gil out of pocket, nobody in scenario cares about the "opportunity cost" because they all got something.

Also, not all agree on how to obtain loot (buy everything or do event), and therein lies a conflicting goal/philosophy:

Example B: A LS member only has 2-3 hours a night to play. Wants an E. Body.
Your solution: Farm Dynamis and pay for multiple Nidhogg pops till E. Body drops, or pay for an entire group to do Einherjar 10 times. Total price: 8 million for each Nidhogg pop multiplied by however many pops it takes for E. Body to drop, or a napkin to wipe the tears of laughter when he asks a group to do Ein for him 10 times.
My solution: LS member earns DKP through events like ADL. Next Einherjar, E. Body drops and member lots it. Total price: 0 gil, member doesn't care about the "opportunity cost" because doing Ein took less effort and was probably more interesting than hardcore farming Dyna and trolling PJ for Nidhogg pops.

As for your last paragraph, I actually wholeheartedly agree. People might get sick of ADL. I probably will after the 4th or 5th!

[Raksha]

If you're still trying to bring up the fact that many shells had DKP that paid you by the hour despite the fact that many events had variable rates of profitability, then you are talking about a poorly designed system.

I don't know if this changes your opinion or not, but we don't award DKP on a per-hour basis, we award DKP per event/mob.

For example each voidwatch fight would be 1dkp, an entire dynamis session would be 6ish, with more potential DKP for ADL, etc.

[Byrth]

The problem with systems like the one you are describing is mostly in the execution. You have a system like this:
* Player does event
* Player gets the same amount of DKP as everyone else who did the event
* At some point Player converts the DKP into a reward

The two ways they break down:
* The DKP rewarded per event is constant, even though players are not all equal.
* The ratio of DKP to gil/time investment is not constant for all rewards.

The benefit of using a system like yours is that it's structured. In the long run though, it is not necessarily more fair than a "divine choice" system where LS leaders simply call out who is getting what item and what the event for the night is with no explanation given. Someone who does ADL and gets a single Umbral Marrow is getting a much better deal (20mil) than someone who does Einherjar four times and gets an E.body (4 Sweet Teas = 20mil).

If I was going to give a suggestion to improve it, I would recommend not using DKP anymore. Instead of an intermediary "DKP," award gil for each event that yields sellable items. If you do an 18-man fight for a 20mil drop, each player has made 1mil. If someone does 20 such fights, they would have the right to a 20-mil item. etc.

If you aren't comfortable putting a price on the rewards from an event (like Einherjar), then make it optional and let the do-er beware as far as the drop system goes. It used to be that "LS events" entailed 18 people, but that just isn't the case anymore. If don't pull the 6-9 people required for the most hardcore of events, maybe your LS doesn't want to do that event. If some people still want to do it and you can't pull enough, shout. Same deal for Voidwatch. If you can't get 18, shout. Going into any event with a skilled core group is going to give you a much better shot at success, so it isn't like your LS is totally out of luck if they can't pull a full 18 (or even 12) for Voidwatch.

[Raksha]

The problem with systems like the one you are describing is mostly in the execution. You have a system like this:
* Player does event
* Player gets the same amount of DKP as everyone else who did the event
* At some point Player converts the DKP into a reward

The two ways they break down:
* The DKP rewarded per event is constant, even though players are not all equal.
* The ratio of DKP to gil/time investment is not constant for all rewards.

The benefit of using a system like yours is that it's structured. In the long run though, it is not necessarily more fair than a "divine choice" system where LS leaders simply call out who is getting what item and what the event for the night is with no explanation given. Someone who does ADL and gets a single Umbral Marrow is getting a much better deal (20mil) than someone who does Einherjar four times and gets an E.body (4 Sweet Teas = 20mil).

If I was going to give a suggestion to improve it, I would recommend not using DKP anymore. Instead of an intermediary "DKP," award gil for each event that yields sellable items. If you do an 18-man fight for a 20mil drop, each player has made 1mil. If someone does 20 such fights, they would have the right to a 20-mil item. etc.

If you aren't comfortable putting a price on the rewards from an event (like Einherjar), then make it optional and let the do-er beware as far as the drop system goes. It used to be that "LS events" entailed 18 people, but that just isn't the case anymore. If don't pull the 6-9 people required for the most hardcore of events, maybe your LS doesn't want to do that event. If some people still want to do it and you can't pull enough, shout. Same deal for Voidwatch. If you can't get 18, shout. Going into any event with a skilled core group is going to give you a much better shot at success, so it isn't like your LS is totally out of luck if they can't pull a full 18 (or even 12) for Voidwatch.

DKP costs for sellable items are based on their gil cost, ra/ex items are decided on a group basis on the LS forums.

We have gil rewards for people who level needed jobs, we have dkp bonuses for things like being on time, and "dkp worthiness" is based on attendance, not skill (I dunno how you would set up a system to determine the dkp-worthiness of a person's playing abilitiy. If you have suggestions let me know)

[Unctgtg]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Guess SE is ignoring the Thread.

[Babygyrl]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Guess SE is ignoring the Thread.

Honestly i think they just dont care. They said its 5 umbrow merrows and thats final!!.. Guess there is not much of a point to have a forum with player feed back if they wont listen to it anyways.

[Unctgtg]

Remember Alpha and Beta in 14. They didn't listen to us.

[Alerith]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Guess SE is ignoring the Thread.

Remember Alpha and Beta in 14. They didn't listen to us.

Ok, while I'm not happy about how the Dev team is handling this trial, you're acting like a child.

"WAHHHH SE ISN'T LISTENING! WAHHHHH THEY DON'T CARE!"

Really, knock it off. Just because they don't respond to every single post doesn't mean they aren't listening, and if you've noticed, we've received responses a few times in this very thread. They may not have been the exact answers we're looking for, but they aren't flat out ignoring the issue.

As for XIV, sure, they dropped the ball on release. But ya know what? They not only admitted it, they put in a new development team and released a timeline of planned changes. That's a lot coming from an MMO team.

Now, man up, actually read the thread, then try to post something useful that isn't childish drivel.

[Unctgtg]

You also do realize WHO got put in charge of FFXI right. The same development team that went from 11 to 14 then back to 11.

[Karbuncle]

As for XIV, sure, they dropped the ball on release. But ya know what? They not only admitted it, they put in a new development team and released a timeline of planned changes. That's a lot coming from an MMO team.

Thats called PR.

They're attempting to save-face and turn FFXIV around from being a flop, You're delusional if you think for a second anything would have changed if the game actually made a good release. The only reason FFXIV is changing is because it was hailed as one of the worst releases of an MMO in forever.

---

That said, I would like to note: I understand they listen, i really do.

But I think they have the same problem as the FFXIV Team did. They only half listen, and continue to go about their "Grand vision of balance" with or without our approval. Which, Some might think is their right, But they're selling a constant product, If they want to keep customers, Their goal shouldn't be fullfilling some un-seeable vision of Balance, it should be making customers happy.

Which they're failing at doing when the majority of players are complaining, NA, EU, and JP, look around.

The only way we'll really see change is if the game literally died and began draining money, and this late in its life, they'd likely just pull the plug, they know it, and we know it. So most of us keep playing in hopes maybe something in the future will change, But a lot of us are quitting because its becoming hopeless.

I really like what they did with this forum, truly., But as someone would say, Its about 7 Years too late to make a real difference. I like the Community Reps, I enjoy the forum itself and what we can do with it, I enjoy the Test server.

I Just wish we had all of it when it could actually make a difference, When new people were actually coming in, When the game wasn't in its final stages. (not saying its dying, its just, Theres very few new players).

Just like FFXIV, Their change of heart is a little too late to make a real difference. That, and they're still an "Evil Genie" when it comes to most of the updates.

<3 you Community Reps. <3 Dev Team. </3 Whoevers calling the BALANCE shots.