Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Brolic]

Yet, with your busy schedule, you have a relic? So unless you're stupidly rich, you've been doing Dynamis for what, four months, every day? Which is about the time you'll have to invest in it again. Only this time, you won't just complete your own relic, but also all other 14 relics in your LS (with some luck).

As I said, I just don't think it's unreasonable, compared to before.

his shell has been around for a while, it's the only credible eu shell on asura for the last 4? years. Jem's apoc is probably 2 years old now? was the 2nd on the server.. after mine (rip artaxerxes)

More so in those 4 years it wouldn't be such a huge leap to assume that people have gone from college students with loads of time on their hands to responsible working adults with not so much time.

[Gaspee]

More so in those 4 years it wouldn't be such a huge leap to assume that people have gone from college students with loads of time on their hands to responsible working adults with not so much time.

This is a variable that I don't see mentioned enough. You are absolutely right... the player base is much older than it was upon release and time is something not everyone can afford a lot of.

[Zhronne]

This is a variable that I don't see mentioned enough. You are absolutely right... the player base is much older than it was upon release and time is something not everyone can afford a lot of.

Yes and also gaming standards changed.
What was supposed to be "standard" or acceptable 4 years ago cannot be considered acceptable now. The market evolves and so need to do MMORPGs.

Also it's a psychological matter. Using a metaphore: In this game you're used to walk 600 miles it won't seem a big deal to walk for another 800 miles, you're used to it and you probably don't even imagine that things could be better.
Then, to your big surprise, SE gives you a Ferrari to cover those 600 miles and many many more with much less effort.
You complain a bit at start, but after 1year and a half you kinda get used to that.
Then, all of a sudden, SE makes your Ferrari disappear and tells you to walk for 400 miles.
Those 400 miles are technically less than 600 you used to walk back in your days, but still after having tried a Ferrari they will feel like ten times as much.

They only have themselves to blame for the "Ferrari". They should have given us a Bicycle instead. They can't really expect to go back to the 600miles walking thing and have the player base being happy? Not saying you should keep your Ferrari either, but at least try for something in between instead of jumping from one extreme to another!


They also aren't considering "practical" issues. If you're "forced" to do Dynamis-Xarcabard to help your friends, you won't be able to do Dynamis for yourself.
And wanna talk about the congestion at ADL? Or at how "random" ADL can be?


Personally I don't think the number of Marrows required matters much, it's just a bad idea planned in a bad way. A display of how to design things in a MMO the bad way.
It could be 2 marrows (which would be much easier of course) just like 50 but it would STILL BE a retarded idea, period.
I still don't get what good is there in this idea of promoting individuality to the detriment of collectivity.
Why do they have in 2012 to STILL design things that requires people being "forced" to do things together that will benefit one and only one out of 18 people for an extensive amount of time?

I don't get how they don't even consider these and many other implications, it seems like we're dealing with people who:
1) don't play their games
2) have just started developing mmorpgs
instead of professionists supposed to have over 10 years of experience in the field.

[Mahoro]

his shell has been around for a while, it's the only credible eu shell on asura for the last 4? years. Jem's apoc is probably 2 years old now? was the 2nd on the server.. after mine (rip artaxerxes)

More so in those 4 years it wouldn't be such a huge leap to assume that people have gone from college students with loads of time on their hands to responsible working adults with not so much time.

well, she already does Dyna in 2 hour chunks. I don't think they plan on increasing Dyna past 2 hrs, so it will fit into her work schedule.

Not to mention, could you imagine the drama that a trial like this could bring for shells that have 10+ Relics to upgrade?

"Who should get the Umbral Marrow?"

Personally, I would want to upgrade others' melee weapons over my own Gjallarhorn because they gain so much more at lvl 99, yet how am I to know that I would get the same help when it comes time for my own? Everyone knows how notorious it is for people to finish a Relic/Empy/Mythic and then just quit or take an "extended" break a week later lol

I think many large LS's have some form of DKP system for distributing Marrow. ^^

[Soidisant]

Yet, with your busy schedule, you have a relic? So unless you're stupidly rich, you've been doing Dynamis for what, four months, every day? Which is about the time you'll have to invest in it again. Only this time, you won't just complete your own relic, but also all other 14 relics in your LS (with some luck).

As I said, I just don't think it's unreasonable, compared to before.

I have 2. One from old school Dyna and one from after Dyna changes. Neither involved 4 months of daily Dynamis farming though.

Apoc was done Dec 2008 - Mar 2009 including like ~10 Dyna runs
Ragna was all done in Dec 2011 with just 2 Dyna runs (Attestation and Fragment)

Point being that not every Relic was done recently and involved farming Dyna daily for 4 months. A lot were done pre-changes and even after changes it doesn't mean people spent 2 hours a day in Dyna for 4 months.

Personally I do Dyna once a week and that's only because it's an LS event. No way could I drag myself in there daily for any sort of prolonged period of time. If we did Dynamis daily, it means we'd have to scrap all other LS events as the majority of the LS works during the day. Plus, if the LS does do ADL then it's far more likely we'd sell the Marrow (with it offered to LS members at 75% cost) and then split the gil equally among attending members so that non-relic holders in the LS aren't being unfairly treated.

Like I said though, 5 is potentially reasonable. I'll probably get Apoc to 99 and leave Ragna at 95. I imagine my wife will do Brav or Spharai to 99 and leave the other plus Gjallar at 95. The fact that we think we can get 1 each to 99 even with limited playtime means it's at least semi-reasonable.

I just hope that at the very least they add multiple ??? for the NM's in Xarc otherwise congestion is going to be a huge problem. Anything else after that would be a bonus.

[Tinuviel]

SE needs to realize that the difference between kill objectives and item objectives isnt about difficulty. Sure, kill objectives allows for 18 credits per kill and this drastically increases the rate of trial completion per ADL kill. However, difficulty is easily scaled by # kills. I personally believe that having to kill ADL 50 times is a better trial than having to collect 5 items. This type of change promotes people to work together and all enjoy a reward. If SE doesnt do this, they're forcing us to embark and an extremely frustrating trial. Design the challenge not the difficulty.

As far as how people have already started farming trial items... good god is that actually an argument SE? That's a pathetic argument and you know it. Just make the trial items bazaarable and I'm sure stage 2 relic people will happily buy them up at some point. Camate, can you please get a legitimate argument for keeping the item collecting format from the dev team??? I think when there is such an overwhelming response from the community, explanations from the dev team shouldnt be so easily shot down.

Thanks!

[Camate]

Greetings.

Some of you have already posted the information that was on the Japanese forums, but here it is again, officially.

Required number of items
As a result of adjustments to match the trial difficulty, the below are the current numbers that are planned for the stage 1 version of the weapon upgrades.

• Relic Weapons: 5 items
• Mythic Weapons: 3 items
• Empyrean Weapons: 60 items

※As we are currently carefully looking into the number of items required for stage 2, we will let you know the specifics once the information is available.

[Unleashhell]

Greetings.

Some of you have already posted the information that was on the Japanese forums, but here it is again, officially.

Required number of items
As a result of adjustments to match the trial difficulty, the below are the current numbers that are planned for the stage 1 version of the weapon upgrades.

• Relic Weapons: 5 items
• Mythic Weapons: 3 items
• Empyrean Weapons: 60 items

This should be thought about 1 more time.

The Dev team needs to realize you Dynamis has a time limit. In that time limit you can only make so many pop sets, then only kill ADL 1x per run because people used up their 2 hour abilities. SE needs to give more incentive for ADL along with some minor changes.

Here is what I propose:
[*]Relic Weapons: 3 items
[*]Mythic Weapons: 5 items (PW is still old level 75 content, ADL is newer higher level content and requires more)

Adjustments to Arch Dynamis Lord:

1-2 Umbral Marrow (1 is 100%, 2nd is TH based?)
1-4 100 Piece (1 is 100%, 2-4 is TH based?)


At least having 1-4 100 pieces is a little incentive. I suppose you can add a log or two to the drop list....*sarcasm*

[CordeliaAzalan]

This should be thought about 1 more time.

The Dev team needs to realize you Dynamis has a time limit. In that time limit you can only make so many pop sets, then only kill ADL 1x per run because people used up their 2 hour abilities. SE needs to give more incentive for ADL along with some minor changes.

Here is what I propose:
[*]Relic Weapons: 3 items
[*]Mythic Weapons: 5 items (PW is still old level 75 content, ADL is newer higher level content and requires more)

Adjustments to Arch Dynamis Lord:

1-2 Umbral Marrow (1 is 100%, 2nd is TH based?)
1-4 100 Piece (1 is 100%, 2-4 is TH based?)


At least having 1-4 100 pieces is a little incentive. I suppose you can add a log or two to the drop list....*sarcasm*

While I don't agree with swapping of the item numbers (the overall road of Mythic is much longer and more annoying than Relic was and currently is), I can see why they cut Mythic-wielders some slack, I support the idea of 1-2 Marrows with 1 being 100%. And at the very least, half that concept should apply to PW in that his Mulcibar's Scoria should be 100%.

[Nynja]

While I don't agree with swapping of the item numbers (the overall road of Mythic is much longer and more annoying than Relic was, so I can see why they cut Mythic-wielders some slack), I support the idea of 1-2 Marrows with 1 being 100%. And at the very least, half that concept should apply to PW in that his Mulcibar's Scoria should be 100%.

There was nothing wrong with the PW trial then, at 10 items needed with the zeni/picture boost, it was fine, regardless of the fact that mythic weapons required giving their first born. The revised zeni was more than sufficient to make getting 10 PW pops a decent trial...maybe it wouldnt be finished in a week, but the difficulty scale was rather low.


The problem was, and still is, the relic trial. Cutting it down to 5 doesnt change the fact that its still the hardest trial by a decent margin. Break it down by manhours required, I'll copy what I wrote on another forum (though I'm gonna fix up some stuff since I wrote that on my phone):

ADL: realistically, with needing PD to kill adl, you can do one per run. For best chance of success, you should bring 18, so if youre wrong on the first set of clones, you can still kill the second set of clones. So you're already looking at 36 manhours per adl attempt. With a 75% kill rate factoring in the luck garbage, youre looking at about 7 adl attempts for 5 marrows. 36x7 is 252 manhours per relic 99, with marginal gains to those just helping. Everything must be coordinated with the schedule of 18 others.

PW: Requires approx 7 gamedays of zeni turnin at proposed 10x value. The picture taking should take 30 min for each days worth of pictures..maybe, been a while. The legwork can be 2boxd up to the tier 4s...and maybe the t4s as well. Presume 2 hours per t1-t2-t3 kill factoring in running time (im being generous) and 30 min for the T4, so 7 manhours per t4 x3 is 21 hours per pw set. Theres some complications since you can turn in pictures while getting new pop items...sooooo 21 hours per pw set of nms, 2 hours of picture taking, 30x18 minutes to kill pw.
...
30min*18*3 to kill all 3 PW's = 27 manhours
7 manhours per t4 set * 3 sets * 3 PW pop items = 63 manhours
add in 2 hours of picture taking (I dont remember when I mentally calculated it if this was for 1 PW set or 3...lets presume 1) x3 = 6 manhours

96 manhours to farm from 0 to 3 PW kills, with only 27 manhours requiring scheduling corrdination vs 252 manhours for 5 ADL kills requiring full scheduling coordination throughout.


thats not balance, especially considering you want the relic trials to be easier