[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Alhanelem]

I'm hoping, from what I"m reading, that more hardcore groups will be able to do well with just the minimum 3-6 people, but ordinary people will be able to do it with more. I also don't like the idea of another new event with a huge gil sink price to replace the no-longer-gilsink Dynamis.

It seems like they want to bring back large linkshells but I really don't see that happening. The playerbase is smaller, the long time players do not have as much time on their hands as they used to, and... yeah.

[Vold]

It's not so much a population issue as it is the types of people that are playing, or maybe it's just what FFXI itself has done to us over the years. People are welcoming content that embraces smaller groups. They got tired of the 18+ man LSs and farming for years for little rewards in comparison to the amount of work they put into it. There's a good reason large groups of players can still exist in other MMOs despite small populations of players. It's a reason FFXI doesn't have and that's rewards that are always delivered. Not necessarily silver platter stuff like Abyssea, but something that is vastly superior to SE's ideals of low drop rates and time sinks. Sometimes they do like those other games but it's too few and far between. AV for example is one of those exceptions but because the fricking thing was such murder no one ever killed it for years to reap the rewards of it's drop rates.

If they drop the ideals they have and be more forgiving, people would be more willing to group up and take care of business because it's more fun. If they insist on their way for ever and ever then we will always do whatever we can to ensure we take monsters out with as few as possible for as little competition for drops as possible when they do drop. I want to see 18 man content. FFXI can easily support it. But I think we as a playerbase are done with the 2003-09 way of things. We're done with people running off with KCs and LS banks and ninja lots and all that crap. Time is better spent watching paint dry than spend another second in SE's dream world where everyone plays for 30 years trying to get virtual crap with sub par drop rates all the while paying them to let us do it. It does nothing but promote people screwing each other over. It's not a total failure of a system because the game has survived for nine years but I can't help but wonder how many hundreds of thousands more might still be playing today had they been properly rewarded instead of being shrugged off as weak and unworthy of FFXI.

[Sparthos]

If this event has procs, a decent loot spread, doesn't lock you out for days on end and doesn't rely on endless temp item spam then it stands a good chance to be very popular.

18man groups can be built via shout easily but 36man? Yeah, no.

[Alhanelem]

If this event has procs

If it doesn't have procs, you mean. Nobody wants procs. This event is all about bashing as much shiat in as you can. Who would waste time proccing? You get more points and more loot the more stuff you kill. A proc system would slow that down.

Seriously. No procs please. We have enough "proc events."

BTW, legion on test server is b0rked and the hands of darkness prevent you from entering.

As far as how it's going to play out, judging by the minimum required, killing stuff won't be insurmountable with a small group, but since more kills = better stuff, you'll want as many people as possible to get the best rewards.

BTW, one of the weird things about this event is it's a "model area" like the ballista and brenner zones are, and it was created by the same mage Abjdalis that created those other places. Kind of strange...

[Sparthos]

If it doesn't have procs, you mean. Nobody wants procs. This event is all about bashing as much shiat in as you can. Who would waste time proccing? You get more points and more loot the more stuff you kill. A proc system would slow that down.

Seriously. No procs please. We have enough "proc events."

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Like it or not, procs are good for XI when used only as a way of stunning the enemy. I don't care for the temp item dumps or crucial procs that make or break fights/loot spread but to say that procs are bad in a large scale event is silly when XI is swimming in jobs that just cant catch a break at endgame.

The event can be tough and still have a way of encouraging job variety.

[Arcon]

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Yes, so now you're still forced to play whichever job is needed to get as many as possible, only that they're no use at all except for procing. Forced diversity is as annoying as preferred monotony. Personally I'd argue it's worse now than it was before, because having more different jobs will increase your actual chance at loot, whereas before it just took longer if you got a DRK DD over a SAM DD (and not too much longer either). At 75, most content was done by most setups. That wouldn't stop shouting people from shouting for the best, of course, because they never know who they will wind up with if they shout for people. So you shout for the job that's better on average, so even if you wind up with a shitty SAM, he'll do good enough damage.

Procs are annoying.

[Sparthos]

Yes, so now you're still forced to play whichever job is needed to get as many as possible, only that they're no use at all except for procing. Forced diversity is as annoying as preferred monotony. Personally I'd argue it's worse now than it was before, because having more different jobs will increase your actual chance at loot, whereas before it just took longer if you got a DRK DD over a SAM DD (and not too much longer either). At 75, most content was done by most setups. That wouldn't stop shouting people from shouting for the best, of course, because they never know who they will wind up with if they shout for people. So you shout for the job that's better on average, so even if you wind up with a shitty SAM, he'll do good enough damage.

Procs are annoying.

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action. Good if you're in the latter and bad if you're someone who mains the former.

Some people like to dodge that fact by playing the old 'you can change classes' card and thats fine, if you like being on the same handful of classes repeatedly.

I don't see how procs are annoying as they encourage players to do something other than spam the strongest abilities they have and adds some depth to a fight. Proc stunned a powerful TP move? Awesome. Proc lowers the defenses of a mob temporarily? Awesome. Sure, it may be forced diversity but it's better than the alternative and it's only a matter of time before the alternative takes root again. The ideal Legion would make procs useful but not crucial meaning less organized groups can enjoy variety with a bonus while skilled groups can run with min/max builds if they so choose.

Procs don't change that. When some otehr job is needed for a proc, they run in, do their proc, and run out. I don't know which planet you live on, but if a PUP or SMN or <insert other lesser used job here> comes to voidwatch, I can assure you, proccing is about all they contribute to the fight.

Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.

Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

[saevel]

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action. Good if you're in the latter and bad if you're someone who mains the former.

Some people like to dodge that fact by playing the old 'you can change classes' card and thats fine, if you like being on the same handful of classes repeatedly.

I don't see how procs are annoying as they encourage players to do something other than spam the strongest abilities they have and adds some depth to a fight. Proc stunned a powerful TP move? Awesome. Proc lowers the defenses of a mob temporarily? Awesome. Sure, it may be forced diversity but it's better than the alternative and it's only a matter of time before the alternative takes root again. The ideal Legion would make procs useful but not crucial meaning less organized groups can enjoy variety with a bonus while skilled groups can run with min/max builds if they so choose.



Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.



We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

I know you don't like big LS's and such, but I'm not sure what game you've been playing. We've never ~ever~ told a DRG, DRK, RNG, or ~insert any job here~ to stand "in the back" while SAM and WAR goes to town. They'll field as many DD's as they have, and considering how many players have left shells in the last year+ I doubt they'll be picky about who they bring. The order will simply be "come on your best geared melee job" and that's it. Only absolute twats would tell someone to change off their better geared DRG / DRK / ect. to their lower geared SAM / WAR.

[Vagrua]

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action.

Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.



We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

I have to agree with this. It was always my Masamune SAM for events until my linkshell started letting me come PUP to void for procs and the damage. The higher tier voids destroyed my SAM leaving it weakened most the time compared to my automaton never gaining hate while nuking.

I can imagine any other event that didn't involve procs wouldn't include other jobs like this. It would be nice to have an event that favored all jobs.

[Greatguardian]

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Like it or not, procs are good for XI when used only as a way of stunning the enemy. I don't care for the temp item dumps or crucial procs that make or break fights/loot spread but to say that procs are bad in a large scale event is silly when XI is swimming in jobs that just cant catch a break at endgame.

The event can be tough and still have a way of encouraging job variety.

Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

Personally, I have a shell that can still easily field 18+ extremely competent players at an event assuming people actually have something to do and a motivation to do it. I know of at least a half dozen other shells on my server that can do the same.