[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Mahoro]

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

[Greatguardian]

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

[Economizer]

Literally every job in the game can outdamage

Before I'm asked for proof

Awe... but then how do we get you to math out 5 WHM + 1 BRD vs. 6 SMN? Pretty please with maple sugar on top?

[Greatguardian]

Awe... but then how do we get you to math out 5 WHM + 1 BRD vs. 6 SMN? Pretty please with maple sugar on top?

Wait is that a serious question? 5 Mjollnirs with March+March+Minuet versus 6 Avatars? I know you know just how strong Whm can smack when they want to.

I'm referring to any single job versus any single Summoner with the other slots already filled anyways, as this is the only relevant comparison in large groups.

[Economizer]

As expected your answer was sufficiently entertaining (although it didn't beat the projections on the very remote possibility of a serious, math filled beat down of current avatar mechanics against that of a group of haste boosted clerics).

Wait is that a serious question?

Perhaps I should have asked about four White Mages being able to beat the game?

5 Mjollnirs with March+March+Minuet versus 6 Avatars? I know you know just how strong Whm can smack when they want to.

I dunno, those wily Summoners might be fighting stuff that is strong against blunt damage and isn't undead. Plus I'm pretty sure there are no Mjollnirs on my server yet.

[Mahoro]

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

[saevel]

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

*Cough*

Jobs are not judged by what they can do at their best, their judged by what they do on average. Average SMN is a waste of a slot outside of BP procs. Super dedicated SMN can earn their slot, but still not anything super OMG. PD, which is a 2hr mind you, is the only thing right now that SMN really has to offer. You mentioned haste, yet I can count on one hand the number of SMN's I've seen in my 8~9yrs of playing that actually attempted to maintain haste as a buff, and not a single one kept it up longer then 15 min. When people want the haste spell, they think RDM and WHM, not SMN, even though pretty much any support job /WHM can do haste for awhile now. Heck SMN can't even heal now due to all them running to /RDM and never ~ever~ casting cure or haste on party members, even when one is dieing right in front of them.

I can go on and on about how bad that job is broke right now, half of it is that players have become to numb to how broke SMN is that they don't even try anymore. At least PUP and BST can always fall back to being a generic melee #238, SMN doesn't even have that option.

Again this isn't me hating on the job, I really do wish SE would fix the damn job because it has amazing potential. Removal of BP timers needs to be done ASAP, greatly reducing perpetuation costs, and some way to transfer masters buff to summoned pet similar to what atma's did inside abysesa. If your avatars had specialized stats, some having high attack / accuracy / haste / STR / DEX, others having high MAB / INT / MND and let Titan have high defense / VIT / -DT and +enmity. Then we'd be talking about a powerful job.

[saevel]

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Emp WAR / MNK, pimped DRG, generic SAM, pretty much all the "DD"s. WHM's super cures. PLD's Brochain / Aegis (although tanking isn't much these days). BRD's super buffs, COR's super buffs, QD and WF. SCH's massive assortment of JA's, or even their 2H which is a miniature brew (although limited outside abyssea). BLM's mega nukes. Heck even broken RDM has more use's then SMN.

SMN has ... BP procs and .... PD zergs. BP procs are only VWNM, which is currently the ~only~ "end game" available, once Legion / Nyzule get back SMN's usefulness drops to near zero.

And removing the BP timers would not break SMN. Summing time + readying time + dismissal time would ensure there was a limit on what they could do. If removal is too much, then make them 15s. There is no excuse why SMN can only do one cool thing per 60s for each type of move. You can either do stoneskin, or heal or remove status ailments, but no combination of the three. Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.