[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Glamdring]

Pets suck in every endgame event so that is no surprise.

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

[saevel]

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

The issue with "pets suck" isn't so much that the pet sucks, but that their AI is retarded. BST is probably the best pet job due to their AI being direct and easy to control, you even get to pick the special move to use. SMN has serious issues outside of Abyssea, their avatars are just weak period and can only do cool things once per min or so. PUP suffers from it's AI having failed out of kindergarten and their only method of controlling it is via coaxing and hoping it doesn't decide to silena you instead of Cureing you. If SE would allow the PUP to directly control their pet, rather then rely on the maneuver mini-game, then PUP's usefulness would be vastly improved.

Pet jobs are powerful in the right situations, other times they get overshadowed, especially in high AoE damage environments which seem to be the direction SE is going.

[Yygdrasil]

The issue with "pets suck" isn't so much that the pet sucks, but that their AI is retarded. BST is probably the best pet job due to their AI being direct and easy to control, you even get to pick the special move to use. SMN has serious issues outside of Abyssea, their avatars are just weak period and can only do cool things once per min or so. PUP suffers from it's AI having failed out of kindergarten and their only method of controlling it is via coaxing and hoping it doesn't decide to silena you instead of Cureing you. If SE would allow the PUP to directly control their pet, rather then rely on the maneuver mini-game, then PUP's usefulness would be vastly improved.

Pet jobs are powerful in the right situations, other times they get overshadowed, especially in high AoE damage environments which seem to be the direction SE is going.

I'm sorry. I take issue with a lot of what you're saying. First of all, you start by saying that Pet AI sucks... and then go on to say that BST is just fine and functions well as it is.

Next you're saying that SMN sucks outside Abyssea. I'm sorry but no. I'm not sure about YOUR SMN, but mine does just fine outside Abyssea. In fact, I use mine to participate in Sea, Sky, HNMs, Assault, Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul Isle. I also managed to Solo Alexander Prime and Odin Prime using my SMN. Given the right gear (and not even the best of the best) a SMN can hold his/her own just fine outside of Abyssea. I even used my SMN to get through most of the CoP missions solo... BEFORE the level cap was raised.

As for PUP AI? Yeah... it's a little wonky, but they recently revamped the AI and it functions 100% better than it used to. A lot of our attachments were changed to work more effectively and our AI now prioritizes spells based on the needs of the master in ways that it didn't before. Playing on my PUP, I can do some serious work both solo and in a group. In Abyssea, my BLM Auto does more spike damage than most BLMs can do and it's because of the higher pet damage cap that we have. Sure, we're still at the mercy of our Auto recast timers, but that can be adjusted with the right attachments.

Lastly. I appreciate that you give the nod to Pet Job Powah at the end of your post, but in "high AoE scenarios" we're no worse off than any other job apart from tanks like NIN and PLD. Anything is squishy to a high AoE but there are ways to deal with that. A PUP can use a BLM frame and nuke from a distance outside the AoE. A SMN can just let their Avatar die and re-summon... it's basically what we do already. Our pets are expendable. BST can gear up with a ton of Pet Damage reduction gear and throw out their highest def pets, keep feeding them food and hope for the best.

Honestly, I don't play BST at all, but from what I've seen... if they can't participate in this event... it'll be the only one. 99/100 ain't bad all things considered.

Pet jobs are powerful in ANY situation. How powerful simply relies on who is playing the job.

[Greatguardian]

I'm sorry, I take issue with a lot of what you're saying.

You use your level 99 summoner in level 75 content? Okay.

You solo'd Alexander and Odin prime on Summoner at 99, when they had been solo'd by other jobs at 75/80 too? Okay.

You solo'd most of CoP as a 75 Summoner after the caps were taken off? Okay.

Nothing on your list impresses anyone.

Pet jobs are shit-tastic. A shit sandwich, if you will. Pet jobs are trash in any large group situation (6+). But don't worry, if it makes you feel good knowing that your super decked Summoner can do mildly unimpressive/mediocre things and keep up with obviously B-tier melee in events designed for players 25 levels lower than you then more power to you.

[Sparthos]

I'm sorry. I take issue with a lot of what you're saying. First of all, you start by saying that Pet AI sucks... and then go on to say that BST is just fine and functions well as it is.

Next you're saying that SMN sucks outside Abyssea. I'm sorry but no. I'm not sure about YOUR SMN, but mine does just fine outside Abyssea. In fact, I use mine to participate in Sea, Sky, HNMs, Assault, Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul Isle. I also managed to Solo Alexander Prime and Odin Prime using my SMN. Given the right gear (and not even the best of the best) a SMN can hold his/her own just fine outside of Abyssea. I even used my SMN to get through most of the CoP missions solo... BEFORE the level cap was raised.

So your SMN was good at lvl75 content at lvl99, break out the champagne.

Against anything currently designed for lvl99, SMN is in trouble and loses to any number of DD or support classes. Earthen Armor is neat but a BRD can simply Scherzo the party, the timer on pacts limits your damage output and avatar melee is pathetic.

SMN is designed for a game that has long since checked out. It'd take an overhaul to bring the job up to the new par set by other classes.

As for PUP AI? Yeah... it's a little wonky, but they recently revamped the AI and it functions 100% better than it used to. A lot of our attachments were changed to work more effectively and our AI now prioritizes spells based on the needs of the master in ways that it didn't before. Playing on my PUP, I can do some serious work both solo and in a group. In Abyssea, my BLM Auto does more spike damage than most BLMs can do and it's because of the higher pet damage cap that we have. Sure, we're still at the mercy of our Auto recast timers, but that can be adjusted with the right attachments.

PUPs AI is significantly better but the class still has issues securing its way in a party when so many DD can beat it and the pet is killed off by a stiff breeze.

Abyssea is proc, lock and drop it. You don't really need any of the classes other than the ones that can proc so your story about PUP beating BLM is silly. My COR can do 65000 DMG with a brew on, does that mean COR is good in Abyssea? Nope, because all that matters there are procs when you're 19 levels over Vision, 14 levels over Scars and 9 levels over Heroes.

Lastly. I appreciate that you give the nod to Pet Job Powah at the end of your post, but in "high AoE scenarios" we're no worse off than any other job apart from tanks like NIN and PLD. Anything is squishy to a high AoE but there are ways to deal with that. A PUP can use a BLM frame and nuke from a distance outside the AoE. A SMN can just let their Avatar die and re-summon... it's basically what we do already. Our pets are expendable. BST can gear up with a ton of Pet Damage reduction gear and throw out their highest def pets, keep feeding them food and hope for the best.

In high DMG scenarios you can Scherzo DD, use Rangers/Corsairs/Black Mages/Blue Mages who will all outdamage a Summoner/Puppetmaster from a distance. The puppet also has issues locking down the elements which can be highly annoying against certain targets.

Throw out the highest DEF pets? Against anything with a strong AOE, a BST will not be able to keep up with Reward timers and the pet is dead meat.

[SpankWustler]

I'm hesitant to join in, but I guess this discussion is relevant to Legion since it's mainly about pet jobs in the context of large-scale events.

Pet jobs are powerful in ANY situation. How powerful simply relies on who is playing the job.

The opposite is closer to the truth. There is relatively very little that a player or that player's group can do to make a pet more powerful. There's more than ever before that can be done to enhance the function of pets, but that is still not a drop in the bucket in some group scenarios.

Obviously it would be broken if pets and players were on equal footing, because there's a player behind every disposable pet, but there are certain things (status ailments and extremely damaging attacks are the worst) that are easily dealt with by any functional group but stop certain pets dead. Literally, in most cases.

That's assuming the guy with a bunny even minds if his pet is paralyzed or thirty yalms away or dead, since it can not benefit from any offensive buffs from other players which are common in large group activities. The largest contribution to damage it can make in that scenario will probably be through Killer Instinct.

I realize my examples are a bit Beastmaster-centric. That's because I really enjoy the job. That doesn't magically change the job's poor performance in vital areas.

[Sparthos]

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

Certainly isn't Voidwatch or anything relevant to today's endgame you're doing then. So pray tell, what is it?

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

Anything that can charm? That's your great place for pet classes? I guess that sums up my argument that pet classes are pathetic in this game relative to other classes.

Pet jobs tend to be good in content with weak/fodder mob which is why BST was so desired in Dynamis but so can alot of other classes like DNC THF NIN BLU RDM.

Pets can tank weak mobs reasonably, act as a tank and facilitate solo. Put that same BST in any event where the mob is tough and the pets ability to do damage plummets sharply, the master runs a huge deficit relative to other DD (BST has no native JA to increase its damage) and the job is dead in the water. The Killer effect boosts are a step in the right direction but it's situational and will not change the fact that a BST without a pet is already in trouble.

And how are you gonna have a pet when everything spams AOEs that wipe your pet?

The fiend is Extremely Vulnerable to Leech Family abilities!
Sparthosx uses Call Beast
Pil readies Flank Opening
FatsoFargann was defeated by Pil
Call Beast (4:50)

Checkmate.

A similar situation plagues PUP as emphasis on the automaton takes away from your own damage (maneuver delay), DAD nuking is largely unnecessary, the pet is frail (Sharpshot damage at a distance is pathetic) and you have no real incentive to field the class. Why would I bring a PUP/BST over a DRG? SAM? WAR? RNG? MNK? DRK? THF? COR?

SE doesn't know or care. Yeah it's a tightrope to balance these classes but as it stands BST is complete shit against HNMs with PUP being slightly better off but way behind any DD with a proper support line.

[Francisco]

Is it just me, or was the answer to the PUP remark a bit flippant?

Player: My automaton takes like 300-400 damage!

Dev: Thanks for such a detailed remark. And yeah... what were you fighting?

...lol

[saevel]

So basically, legion is VWNM but in an arena and without temps? Sounds like it's a bunch of NM's that spam high damage aoe's and wipe entire groups.

[Yygdrasil]

@Glamdring

Preach it! \(-.-)/