To the devs!

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not that Rdm' doesn't need buffs/modifications but I can easily argue in the case of Sch Pup Drg Bst and Cor, they needed them more than Rdm did.

[ManaKing]

Not seeing what's so incidental about Rdm getting a final sword weapon. Rdm's final weapons are all swords and 1 dagger.

Not trying to be a jerk, but i think it is 2 daggers. http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oneiros_Knife . That being said, not for WS and only as an offhand for an Almace. I'll concede we have only 1 main hand dagger, but we have 2 useful ones. Which still doesn't completely explain why we only have 2 good daggers and a B in dagger skill.....

Sword users got a good weaponskill and RDM is one of the 3 sword users. I struggle to understand why you look at that with such spite. At least RDM didn't get Cloudsplitter!

That's funny because we could have actually used Cloudsplitter, unlike a BST/WAR that doesnt have access to high levels of MAB/MAC. The STR/MND mods are typical of sword user WSs. It would have been the Melee equivalent of Wildfire on a RDM because of the difference in gearing options for a RDM vs a COR. 40% of STR/MND would have gone a long way on RDM and we would have had the MAB/MAC to hit and hit well.

The job that should have the most good Magical WSs in the game only has 1 natively and it's an AOE. Sanguine Blade is a survival tool, not a damage tool. Why doesn't RDM still have a good elemental WS, so it can tear up mobs?

I'm only pointing out SE does a good job of mixing things up for no apparent reason. I love my Almace and CDC, but it doesn't fit the job as well as other options would have. We have naturally weak Attack ratings so we are never going to get the most out of CDC. There seems to be no real logical sense to how they adjust jobs and design WSs, because it's certainly not based off which jobs need it the most. Just look at Cloudsplitter since you brought it up. It doesn't make any sense to be on BST or WAR. I mean, maybe DRK, but that isn't going to make anyone happy.

Not that Rdm' doesn't need buffs/modifications but I can easily argue in the case of Sch Pup Drg Bst and Cor, they needed them more than Rdm did.

I'm hoping you mean that they actually got buffs (past tense), because that is what I'm seeing. Just listen to your friend GG, COR is functional and still a good job. BST solos pretty much anything that can be solo'd. DRG is getting recasts lowered and they have gotten tougher wyverns and the ability to use breath moves on a timer. SCH and PUP get buffs constantly, most likely because they actually need them.

RDM gets maintenance. SE is perfectly content to keep RDM down where it is at because they have the conception that it is some kind of juggernaut of exploitation that makes it too powerful even though they already cut off and cauterized all of it's unintended strengths. Temper is the only thing of worth that came out since 75 and only half the people playing RDM even use it.

Instead of Double Attack, RDM could have used a potent MAB buff spell and MAB linked WSs to use it on. It wouldn't have even had to been self cast only since it would only be applicable to 1/4 of the jobs in the game. My point and several other people's point is that RDM gets blanket buffs but never gets specialized attention that is relevant to our job. I feel RDM has become grossly marginalized and has been stripped of any positive job identity. We could have been good at something, but currently we aren't particularly good at anything and that is a crappy place to be.

[cidbahamut]

And now we have it, your trying to insinuate RDM's got some sort of buff via CDC and call it a day.

You're seriously going to sit there and try to argue that RDM getting CDC did not improve Red Mage's melee capabilities? And he calls the rest of us trolls... /roll_eyes

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not trying to be a jerk, but i think it is 2 daggers. http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oneiros_Knife . That being said, not for WS and only as an offhand for an Almace. I'll concede we have only 1 main hand dagger, but we have 2 useful ones. Which still doesn't completely explain why we only have 2 good daggers and a B in dagger skill.....

I was referring to Relic/Mythic/Empyrean as 'final' weapons. Rdm has a sword for each and is on dagger as well for Relic. There was no precedence for Rdm getting Dagger and not Sword, so I don't find Rdm being on Almace 'incidental'.

I'm hoping you mean that they actually got buffs (past tense), because that is what I'm seeing. Just listen to your friend GG, COR is functional and still a good job. BST solos pretty much anything that can be solo'd. DRG is getting recasts lowered and they have gotten tougher wyverns and the ability to use breath moves on a timer. SCH and PUP get buffs constantly, most likely because they actually need them.

RDM gets maintenance. SE is perfectly content to keep RDM down where it is at because they have the conception that it is some kind of juggernaut of exploitation that makes it too powerful even though they already cut off and cauterized all of it's unintended strengths. Temper is the only thing of worth that came out since 75 and only half the people playing RDM even use it.

Instead of Double Attack, RDM could have used a potent MAB buff spell and MAB linked WSs to use it on. It wouldn't have even had to been self cast only since it would only be applicable to 1/4 of the jobs in the game. My point and several other people's point is that RDM gets blanket buffs but never gets specialized attention that is relevant to our job. I feel RDM has become grossly marginalized and has been stripped of any positive job identity. We could have been good at something, but currently we aren't particularly good at anything and that is a crappy place to be.

Bst soloing doesn't really matter outside of dynamis, and otherwise is still an unpopular job for the rest of the game. Cor is/was one of the least popular jobs next to Pup; only after Wildfire and other changes has cor started to look more attractive. Sch wasn't much better off and even with all the changes isn't a very popular job, unlike the other mages bar Blu (heck Blu is still more popular than Sch...).

Think we're mostly in agreement with your last statement, yes Rdm is in a bad place right now, but the other jobs who received buffs were in a even worse position in my opinion.

[saevel]

There was no precedence for Rdm getting Dagger and not Sword, so I don't find Rdm being on Almace 'incidental'.

*Cough* Aeolian Edge vs Sanguine Blade

I know it's not a weapon, but it is a Weapon skill. And we weren't on the bigger DMG Bastard / Scimatar Class swords for a long time. This is SE, I ~really~ don't trust them.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm has never learned Ex weaponskills for Sword without appropriate subjob. The problem was Sanguine Blade was a Ex WS.

As bad as SE is at times I highly doubt they would give Rdm a 'final' dagger and not Sword especially since they haven't in the past. They have been pretty bullish on other gear but they probably consider it 'balance' since Rdm has self enhancing spells. Or something.

[Ophannus]

And we weren't on the bigger DMG Bastard / Scimatar Class swords for a long time.

Excalibur and Almace are longswords. RDM doesn't get any Scimitars except for Sapara of Trials I believe.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Almace being one hell of a longsword and downright ridiculous on Taru. Or any race but it's really obvious on Taru.

[Ketaru]

And now we have it, your trying to insinuate RDM's got some sort of buff via CDC and call it a day. IDK where you've been living lately, if your here honestly trying to have a discussion or just trolling the RDM forums for lols.

How does anything I say suggest that we got CDC and we can leave it at that? I said quit with the undermining of the fact we got it as though it was just the run off of PLD and BLU. You're not entitled to it just because PLD and BLU did. One would think you of all people would get that, since you yourself are the one that said it could've just as easily have been Rudra's Storm instead.

I'm only pointing out SE does a good job of mixing things up for no apparent reason. I love my Almace and CDC, but it doesn't fit the job as well as other options would have. We have naturally weak Attack ratings so we are never going to get the most out of CDC. There seems to be no real logical sense to how they adjust jobs and design WSs, because it's certainly not based off which jobs need it the most. Just look at Cloudsplitter since you brought it up. It doesn't make any sense to be on BST or WAR. I mean, maybe DRK, but that isn't going to make anyone happy.

I'd rather have a WS that is good before a WS that just fits your image of the job. Gearing for CDC is incredibly simple. Gearing for Cloudsplitter is impossible. Cloudsplitter is not a good WS or even a decent one. Period.

Every other job has gotten multiple buffs and modifications. RDM was given tier ups and a nifty 10m JA.

And Gain-Attribute spells. And a new type of debuff. And a job ability that enhances debuffs. And Temper. They may not all be particular useful for the current endgame (even though Voidwatch is now kind of a joke with frequent procs). But don't conveniently neglect to mention them just because they don't suit your argument.

Make a comparison. BLM mostly got "tier ups and a nifty 10m JA" as well, but they are clearly experiencing a surge in popularity. For no other reason than weakness procs. So let us all agree that RDM mostly fails to meet a particular need right now. But that has nothing to do with a lack of updates and everything to do with the developers' irrational fear that being able to land enfeebles will be overpowered. And even if they do land, they don't do crap to new NMs. On a mob like Gaunab, Paralyze II is more useful for it's ability to trigger a weakness than it's intended of effect of actually paralyzing.

And, like whores, many of us (myself included), probably merited Bio III and Blind II because they "might" be the Dark Black Magic that triggers weakness. Not because of any actual desire to have these spells.

BST solos pretty much anything that can be solo'd.

Beliefs like that are why the job will never get anything that will make them wanted in groups. Only more stuff that will make people hate BSTs.

[saevel]

Excalibur and Almace are longswords. RDM doesn't get any Scimitars except for Sapara of Trials I believe.

I'll say it again,

And we weren't on the bigger DMG Bastard / Scimatar Class swords for a long time

And LOL about RDM and Excal prior to recent Dyna updates. Relics were hard enough to get, most shells won't let you sponsor unless your a leader and definitely not for what they call "lolMeleeRDM". You had to say you were getting it for your "PLD", or be in the leaders back pocket.

Plus Xcal isn't even that good for RDM. If you were going to do a relic it should of been Mandau, evis was our best WS prior to CDC being introduced.

That comment was in reference to Bastard Swords have better DPS then Long Swords, our best Long Sword was Enhancing Sword at Lv 68 DMG:40 Delay 240, vs things like Company Sword or Perdu Hangar. This is all pre 80 / abyssea land. Thankfully we were put on the Sword Magian trials which greatly boosted our melee potential, but again SE could just as easily put us on the dagger ones and called it a day.