To the devs!

[Mageoholic]

Why does it have to stack up against other support, When it stacks with it?

The fact is RDM has no role currently, and the only viable option is to enhance our buffing and debuffing. No one is going to invite a RDM because it can nuke/heal/melee if they wanted to invite us for that we would have a spot in a party. Instead they bring WHM's WAR's and BLM's.

The skill set of RDM dictates that the only viable position we can have in a group is as a support mage, using our secondary skills to fill in the weak spots in a party while we provide said support. Until our buffs and debuffs are actually useful and clearly better than WHM, BLM or /RDM, /WHM, there isn't a spot for RDM.

It is well and good to ask for new things and other tricks, but when the foundation of the job is rotten you don't throw more shit on top hoping it will magically get fixed. Until the foundation of the job is fixed then nothing added on top will take.

SE needs to determine what they want RDM to do. What role it is supposed to provide to a group, and quite honestly the only one that makes any sense with the current job distribution is buffing and debuffing.

[ManaKing]

RDM doesn't stack with other supports, currently, thus your question is invalid. I'm not going to discuss what ifs for a future that may or may not happen. You are making a large amount of assumptions.

Nothing about our current skill set dictates that the only viable position we can have in a group is as a support mage. That is something you came up with based off your personal vision of the job and what it once was. Welcome to 2012. SE does what it wants with your job and you get to guess what they are thinking because they don't tell you and they don't make a lot of sense. The only thing RDM is actually good at doing, currently (ie In the actual game), is take hits to the face. We could be good at enfeebling if SE had allowed us to be, but they did not, so please don't reference enfeebling as an asset we currently have, because we don't actually have it.

If you want to petition for RDM to become a support mage, then do it. But don't assuming SE is going that way, because we really don't know anymore. Please look at where RDM is actually at right now and not preconceived notions of yesterday or other more dubious sources such as your personal opinions of it's future. After you have taken a good hard look, then realize what you, personally, want for RDM. Because it currently is full of holes and ambiguity that need to be filled.

SE could decide that RDM is at the end of its spell list and that they don't care how poorly the job is functioning right now. It has 19 other jobs that actually work and have their own job identity. It probably can afford to slack on RDM because there are so many jobs that have already taken all of it's territory. Please don't assuming RDM will be good, just because you want it to be, because currently it is not.

[Mageoholic]

Oh I am sorry.

Dia III - ATK + stacks with Minuet, stacks with Chaos, stacks with Box Step
Bio III - DEF + stacks with Minne, stacks with Titan Favor
Haste - ATK Speed + Stacks with March, stacks with Blitzers, stacks with Haste Samba
Refresh - MP recovery+ Stacks with Ballad, stacks with Evokers, Stacks with Aspir Samba, Stacks with Diablo Favor
Gravity - ACC + Stacks with Madrigal, Stacks with Hunters, Stacks with Stutter
Blind - EVA + Stacks with Mambo, Stacks with Ninjas, stacks with Garudas Favor

Temper DA+, Stacks with Fighters, Stacks with Ifrits Aura
Gain Stat+, Stacks with BRD songs

Seems to me that a lot of our spells stack with other jobs who cast similar spells. They do not stack with some spells,

Example, Blind II and Kurayami NI. (SE needs to change this 5/5 merit spell should be better than a lvl 44 scroll spell)

This is why SE needs to make enfeebling and enhancing skill determine the potency of all of our spells, it will automatically vault RDM to the top support MAGE, thus giving us a reason to be invited.

[Kristal]

Example, Blind II and Kurayami NI. (SE needs to change this 5/5 merit spell should be better than a lvl 44 scroll spell)

Even a 1/5 meritted spell should be better then a lvl 44 spell...

I can only hope "Job Adjustments: Red Mage" will bring some improvement to RDM G2 merits... being the weaponskill merit group prototype testbed sucks to high heavens.

[ManaKing]

See how your spells that are in italics are spells that they have added post 75. That is SE's Agenda. See how none of those can be given to others, and are thus useless unless you are advocating an extremely aggressive Pro-Melee Stance, which I am not. See how Gain doesn't Stack with Boost and you can't give Gain to others. That's what we are talking about because that is what is being added. They have added no insight to possible additional functionality for those spells. That is all in your head and is not presently in the game.

Sorry you're still not seeing that POST 75 RDM has problems which SE has no discernible interest in remedying. Drawing on resources that are PRE 75 and are eclipsed by other support jobs, does not add any validity to your stance. You are being unrealistic. Sorry you want to single target buff an entire party with multiple buffs. That sounds boring as hell and as undesirable to a party as it does to the poor RDM foolish enough to think that they are anything compared to a BRD or COR. Why would a party want buffs applied slowly when they could just be AOEd by better jobs? Your vision of a support mage is BROADLY outclassed by other supports. Come up with something substantial or expect to be harshly opposed by RDMs that have a vested interest in making it better than it is right now. What you are advocating is rubbish and that is why I'm being harsh with you. Please don't take this too personally because I'm not trying to upset you, but you are stepping on my job with buffs that would doom it to mediocrity.

Do Enspells and Sambas Stack? Do even Bio and Dia Stack? No
Does Blind and NIN blind stack? No
Does Gravity stick to be able to stack? No

Is Haste Unique to RDM? No
Is BRD and COR more efficient at refreshing an entire party? Yes
Can COR/RDM duplicate Dia and Bio 3? Yes

Where are all these unique and stack-able spells that get RDM a party spot? Nowhere.

Start with where RDM is actually at right now and work from there. You are jumping ahead on assumptions. RDM is in a horrible spot right now because it doesn't make an impact in party play. That is what needs to be fixed. Bringing up how bad we are at enfeebling and enhancing as a reference for how amazing we will suddenly become as a support mage is seriously misguided.

[Mageoholic]

Jumping ahead on assumptions everything in that list is something we have that can be cast on a mob or party member with the exception of the two in Italics. Gravity is unique because it just doesn't work at all.

These are all base spells we have learned that provide a buff to the group, all of these spells stack with one or more other support jobs spells. Do you even know how this game works?

So Ill ask you again why do we have to stack up to other support jobs, when our abilities stack with them.

Do Enspells and Sambas Stack? Do even Bio and Dia Stack? No
Does Blind and NIN blind stack? No
Does Gravity stick to be able to stack? No

Enspells do not stack, but thankfully we have enspell II's which apply to only a first hit, allowing RDM to gain the benefit of a Samba in the off hand or on a Multi hit.

Blind does stack however with Mambo, Ninjas Roll, Garuda's Davor which is a far cry from not stacking with anything

Should Gravity be able to land it stacks with Quickstep, Madrigal, Hunter's Roll.

RDM doesn't stack with other supports, currently, thus your question is invalid.

So you either need to fix your blatant falsehood, or accept the fact you are wrong. There are some jobs we don't stack with, most of them however we do stack with. It is not an issue of our spells stacking, it is an issue of RDM being the best job to cast those spells. Currently it has Refresh II, Dia III, Bio III. This needs to change.

(cor can make Bio 3 and Dia 3 20% debuffs which is about 23% DEF/ATK+ which is actually 6% higher than they are alone, or XXX II + Shot.)

[Greatguardian]

Trying too hard. You're taking too many posters on these boards seriously, RDD. Haste is a bad example because any WHM or BRD can cover that. Bio and Blind are bad examples because they're epic-tier useless.

Temper would be nice. A crit rate+ spell with an identical curve to Temper would be nice. Make them single target (Any, not Self) and Accessionable. Do that and I'll bring Red Mages to things.

[Mageoholic]

Blind is useful with an evasion tank like NIN, the issue is that NIN can apply Blind itself for the same effect as our merit spell @ 5/5. Even just unlocking it is not as good as Kuryami, a level 44 scroll spell that can be purchased on the AH for practically nothing.

I agree we need Temper to be party castable (not AoE I do not believe RDM should have AoE spells, the casting time "lost" is just not that big of an impact in the overall scheme of things). A crit + spell would be nice as well, which we kind of get in the form of Gain DEX should it be castable on party members.

Having our spells work with accession is also important, all of our spells should work with it. This may subjob lock us for most events, but SCH is a very fluid backline job that allows us to boost effect of our secondary skill sets (nuking and healing). The issue arises with limiting our secondary skill set of melee by locking us into /SCH. I think RDM should have its own ability like BLU that allows for AoEing of spells, on a similar timer. So you have to choose which spell you would want to AoE, and understand that it won't always be up, but every 10 minutes you can AoE haste or Temper, or Refresh.

As for haste being a bad example, if our enhancing skill was able to boost the potency on this spell then WHM or /RDM, /WHM would have an inferior haste spell by comparison. BRD has scaling haste and a BRD with lots of Skill will have a higher cap then one that has no Skill. If a RDM could boost haste to say 20% it would be an automatic invite simply based on that and that alone.

[Greatguardian]

There is nothing worth evasion tanking where NIN, THF, and DNC are not already easily able to floor enemy accuracy without a blind spell. Anything where blind would matter is too strong to evasion tank. It's a matter of context.

As for Haste, the fact of the matter is simply that it does not scale with Enhancing skill. Even if it did, that would only really cause trouble. As long as White Mage is able to reach the cap, it would be irrelevant. If White Mage became unable to reach the cap, it would simply put more strain on the bard. For example, I roll with a Gjallar/Daurab bard in my party almost every time I do Voidwatch. As long as I hit the magic haste cap, I don't really care where the buffs are coming from (and frankly, no one cares what low-tier groups use because they don't really care about "optimizing jobs" as is)

Red Mage really just needs new spells that it can cast on others. A PDT-20% spell that overwrites an MDT-20% spell and vice versa would be a nice gimmick. Temper, crit rate, maybe an Acc+ spell. Evasion down and Crit evasion down as spells would be nice, but this would require NMs to not be immune to everything.

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

[cidbahamut]

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

I dunno GG. Cycles being tedious is a valid complaint. The problem we tend to have is that that's a completely different argument, but the community is incapable of separating it from the prospect of new buffs we can cast on others.

More on-topic, I like the idea of mutually exclusive MDT and PDT buffs on paper, but in practice I see it just covering for players who don't maintain proper PDT/MDT sets. I know there are some jobs that can't reach the cap, but for the ones that can it ends up being redundant unless I suppose you could maintain multiple PDT/MDT sets but it seems unlikely to happen terribly often even among the better players. It's a cool idea, and I'd love to see Red Mage become even more of a Brick Wall Mage, but my gut tells me it would have some kinks to hammer out.