To the devs!

[Mageoholic]

Remember this, you're a Red Mage. You're a mage first and foremost. You're not a Warrior, you're not a Samurai. You're a Mage first and foremost. Yes, you can melee, but not as efficiently as other jobs.
Blue Mages can use swords, and they can fight, yashure. Your point? None, because they deal the majority of their damage via Blue magic. Don't expect to see a Blue Mage pull out a 7K WS, expect it with their magic.

Hate to nit pick but isn't this the kind of spiel you just blasted myself and Saev for?

Its funny you brought blue mage up though since we were discussing job relevance lets examine BLU in comparison to RDM.

- Cure V
- Refresh
- Haste
- Aspir
- Drain
- AoE Nukes (physical and magical damage)
- Single Target Nukes (physical and magic damage)
- stoneskin
- blink
- many stuns
- slow
- paralyze
- silence
- more
- various traits from MAB to DA, DW to Refresh pretty much anything and everything.
- EX sword WS's
(can AoE a spell natively every 10 minutes)
- Self Skilchain/MB

Now they can't set all of these at the same time, unlike RDM. But they do have a generous timer of 1 minute. That is a complete customizable diversity, every BLU can be different.

RDM functions in the same way but instead of spells we rely on subjobs, we make our selves unique in the sense of our subjob defining us. Unfortunately it takes more than a minute to change our primary focus in most cases (warping or getting D2/ D.Warp). We are either locked into support or locked into offense. (our support side is pretty shit at the moment, our offensive side is pretty decent however).

So really BLU is a lot more versatile, and probably the saddest part, they are better healers, nukers. While RDM is the better native enhancer and melee (read melee damage not BLU spells mrs semantics). Both are about even in enfeebling consider slow and para are mostly useless no matter who puts them on. BLU might edge out just because they have the stuns too.

[Neisan_Quetz]

But Blu can't heal outside pt with blue healing spells and their refresh/haste is single target! Barance!

Also lacking decent nukes for certain elements if it matters/somewhat inferior nuking gear as well.

[Mageoholic]

I'm not against a bit of a melee boost for Red Mage, however with that in mind remember we're mages first, and everything else second.

What the hell does this even mean. What kind of mage are we? Are we a support mage? a healer? a nuker? if we can be all those is it that far fetched we could also be a melee. I mean we do have 2 melee skills that are both higher than 2 of our magic skills. What kind of mage are we???

I play (and invite) RDM because it is a gap filler /SCH it can slide around the back line in various disciplines, /NIN it can be an effective support mage/melee.

- Well on paper at least with SE limiting enhancements Ill bring a BRD/RDM (or /WHM if we need the extra -nas) because RDM as a support job is just not worth the party slot, and as such it makes no sense to have a RDM come just as a DD, or just as a Healer, or just as a Nuker when there are jobs that preform those roles better than a RDM. Until SE address the enhancement and enfeebling issues RDM will have no identity because it is not a Healing Mage, it is not a Nuking Mage, and it is not a Melee. It is a Support Mage that uses several secondary skills to fill gaps, a support mage, with a limited ability to support.

[Mageoholic]

The problem with most RDM's is that they argue over secondary skills. I used to argue about melee, and healing, because at the times that I did they were bottom of the barrel. The issue is now that our primary focus is also very weak and this is not good. Ive said it I think in this topic (if not at least my own). RDM is not invited for its ability to heal, or its ability to nuke, or its ability to melee. There are jobs in this game that simply do these things better. RDM was invited to enfeeble mobs, and enhance party members, its secondary abilities of healing, nuking, melee were just holes it could fill, need more magic damage it would nuke, need more healing it would heal, need more melee it would melee.

RDM is none of those things at its core, RDM is a support mage, it weakens mobs and buffs party members, what it does after that is highly situational and at the 75 cap at least was fairly well balanced.

But SE has let the strengths that define our job diminish, SE has let the abilities that allow us to use our secondary skills deteriorate. Why bring a RDM when /RDM provides haste and refresh as well as their own buffs/debuffs/damage. Why bring a RDM when WHM or /WHM can provide haste and other buffs a RDM can't(boost as main WHM).

The simple fact is everything a RDM provides to a group is based on its ability to buff and debuff, otherwise there is no reason to bring a RDM when WHM and SCH heal better, or BLM and SCH nuke better or <insert melee> melee's better.

You can bitch all you want about the secondary aspects of nuking and healing and melee, but the fact is RDM is never going to be picked over the jobs that excel in these fields. Even if you needed a hybrid nuker/healer SCH is much more useful in this vein, similar to DNC who is a more efficient hybrid healer/dd.

Until SE fixes the issues with the core abilities of RDM (enfeebling and enhancing) the job will be passed over, unless SE decides to make the job over powered and capable of taking a spot from WHM or BLM or <insert melee job>.

So yes go off to your nuke needs a buff, melee needs a buff, healing needs a buff threads, adjusting those individually will not get you anymore invites, because frankly SE will have to add a lot to make the SECONDARY skill set of RDM match the PRIMARY skill set of other jobs.

Before Mrs. Semantics jumps all over me, I don't think healing magic works right in general, not just in terms of RDM. There is no reason a job using /WHM or /RDM should be able to cure for the same base amount. I don't care if RDM WHM and SCH can break cure potency or not, the fact is without the gear any job in this game can hit 400 cure 4's, and that is not right and needs to be fixed. Through an adjustment to healing magic separating those with native skill and those without, before gear is applied. A naked MNK/RDM will cure for nearly the same amount as a RDM SCH or WHM casting Cure 4, this is not right. Just like it isn't right a WHM can cast Slow I as strong as us, or that a SCH/RDM can give the same haste as us. What really isn't right is a SCH being able to AoE Phalanx as strong as our merited (5/5) Phalanx II single target, what really isn't right is that a lvl 44 NIN spell provides the exact same benefit as a merited (5/5) Blind.

But yes go ahead and bitch about our secondary skills, ask SE to make you gods of nuking healing and melee, at the end of the day they will either nerf it, or it still won't be as good as dedicated jobs. RDM's road to utility lies in its enhancing and enfeebling, using its secondary skills to support the group in whichever role needs support. Until SE addresses the issues with the primary abilities (enfeebling and enhancing) RDM will be considered useless in group play. (outside its T2 procs which may or may not disappear with SE's change to procs in VW).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM is none of those things at its core, RDM is a rubbish mage, it weakens mobs via enfeebles (well it's supposed to in words only) and that's it.

Fixed for ya!

Big walls of text changes nothing.

Haste + Refresh != Enhancer. Argue all you want, the only enhancing RDM does well is on itself which is apparently the way SE wants it.

[Mageoholic]

Which is why we make threads asking them to change it...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Which is why we make threads asking them to change it...

You're asking them to make RDM a role they specifically said it was not.

[Mageoholic]

Im sorry where did they say RDM was not the job that had the ability to turn its allies into demi gods? I am pretty sure that is what they defined the job as in their going forward spiel a year ago. Unfortunately we can't do that with healing magic, we can't do that with nuking, we can't do that with melee. We could do that with enfeebling, and enhancing, however our enfeebles do not work and our enhancements are self target only.

RDM is a buffing/debuffing job that can not effectively buff and debuff currently. (at least in any capacity that other jobs can not do as well as us). RDM was never invited for its ability to melee first, why do that when you can get a warrior, it was brought because it could buff and debuff and melee, it was never invited as a healer first, it was brought to buff and debuff and then heal, it was not invited as a nuker it was invited to buff and debuff then nuke.

The job has always been about buffs/debuffs, SE has limited both, and thus RDM is limited. They can buff the shit out of healing nuking melee till the cows come home, but it will either be nerfed or never be as good as WAR WHM BLM thus leaving RDM as useless as it is now.

No the only solution to RDM's issues is fixing our buffs/debuffs. That is it. That is the key to the utility of the job. Period.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Im sorry where did they say RDM was not the job that had the ability to turn its allies into demi gods? I am pretty sure that is what they defined the job as in their going forward spiel a year ago. Unfortunately we can't do that with healing magic, we can't do that with nuking, we can't do that with melee. We could do that with enfeebling, and enhancing, however our enfeebles do not work and our enhancements are self target only.

RDM is a buffing/debuffing job that can not effectively buff and debuff currently. (at least in any capacity that other jobs can not do as well as us). RDM was never invited for its ability to melee first, why do that when you can get a warrior, it was brought because it could buff and debuff and melee, it was never invited as a healer first, it was brought to buff and debuff and then heal, it was not invited as a nuker it was invited to buff and debuff then nuke.

The job has always been about buffs/debuffs, SE has limited both, and thus RDM is limited. They can buff the shit out of healing nuking melee till the cows come home, but it will either be nerfed or never be as good as WAR WHM BLM thus leaving RDM as useless as it is now.

No the only solution to RDM's issues is fixing our buffs/debuffs. That is it. That is the key to the utility of the job. Period.

Really!? It was mistranslated as always. It said "Turn themselves into Demi-gods."

It was invited because it had better MP control then WHM, and that was it. WHM now does it good enough so RDM no longer is welcome.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And that vision line is still bullshit.