New Weaponskills - Not what was expected

[Prothscar]

Have you tested it out on BST? as I know it's sure as hell isn't 5%

Limules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.

[darkhorror]

Limules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.

I guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.

[Prothscar]

I guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.

What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.

Just went and got two sample sets very quickly.

No debuff
444 atk
278 def

Debuff 1
332 atk
208 def

Debuff 2
296 atk
185 def


Set 1 coincides with almost exactly a 25% decrease to both stats.

Set 2 coincides with an oddball decimal between 33% and 34% decreases to both stats.

Variable effect seems likely, or it may degrade over time.

Another odd set.

388
243

Almost exactly coincides with a 12.5% decrease to both stats.

Possibly a bug with the test server, as a variable Attack/Defense debuff doesn't seem right.

[Alhanelem]

Hey everyone can attain all the same gear if they try hard enough.

Not everybody wants the same gear though.

OK, go look on the AH and see how much you will have to spend to add 16 skill, 8 attack/accuracy, and 15 strength to both your TP and WS sets for your favorite job. Get back to me when you have that kind of gil laying around.

Those things alone do not totally make or break your combat capability unless you're an elitist perfectionist. 8 attack/accuracyt aren't hard to come by. If by strength you mean attribute merits, most people seem to get STR regardless of the jobs they play because it has some kind of benefit for almost everybody depending on the situation. 16 skill is what provides the attack and accuracy you mentioned. I realize it's not that simple, but we're not talking a dramatic difference in damage here. If you're not in an elitist linkshell, and you really NEED a SAM and your SAM without GK and STR merits is the only one around, you can still play that needed role. Not as well, but I can't think of any fight in the game where 16 combat skill and 15 STR on a single person (assuming they at least have proper gear) will determine if you win or not.

So basically, people already diversify on their own, but you think it should be forced upon them instead?

People already diversify on their own because of the merit system. Without the merit system, there would be no difference between one SAM and the next except for their gear (Don't talk to me about skill, it doesn't take a genius to play SAM effectively). So I guess, yes- it should be forced on us. Why should one person get to be the best at everything? Shouldn't people who focus on a few jobs get to be stronger with them?

Did you think they were going to say "yeah, we knew you would run out of space, but we didn't really care."?

You missed the point of the statement. The point is that the developers were caught off guard because they designed the game around an assumption that a few people would end up breaking. You can play a few jobs and still run out of space. The mention of storage space was only to vaguely source the statement (since I can't find the exact original statement right this moment) and is not part of why the merit system is good the way it is.

They were put there so that players could continue to grow in strength

Yes, that's part of it, but not to grow in strength universally, to grow in strength in specific ways chosen by the player. There is no reprecussion for decision making if you can get it all eventually anyway. It makes your choices have more meaning. There is more than one reason for the merit system, but specialization is one of them and that cannot be denied.

Cool. People don't and won't. On a side note. They recently changed the Exp system so that people can in fact level and play every job fairly easily now. They still don't do it, but they can. You should check it out.

They didn't change the EXP gain to say "hey, you can play all 20 jobs now, and you have to!" They did it because the game is old and growth speed is always increased as MMOs get older, so that newer players who join can catch up to the existing players. There is no obligation of people to level every job, and the reason some people specifically refuse to is so that they can actually play the jobs they like instead of being limited to the 5 most popular jobs that are the only ones "accepted" for endgame at any given time. There's 20 jobs, not 5, if you level them all up and get to merit them all 100%, the pigeonholing will be even worse than it is with the restricted merit system. All you will ever see (at least, with the way things have been for the last while) are WARs MNKs, SAMs, WHMs and BRDs with rare exceptions.

If one tree makes You great at one job, but a Gimp at 15 others, then very few people will bother with anything but the three most popular jobs. FFXI already has enough job favoritism.

Job favoritism will be worse, not better, this way. Everyone has every job and has equal base capability with every job, so we can always have the 5 core jobs we always need! How convenient! People being stronger with some jobs than others, as well as not having every job,helps promote the development of alternative strategies, instead of everyone always using the same strategy for everything.

People are talking about the merit system like it's broken or something, when it's not. Customization is bad! Same is good!

[FrankReynolds]

Not everybody wants the same gear though.

Not everyone wants the same merits though.

Those things alone do not totally make or break your combat capability unless you're an elitist perfectionist. .....
.....

Cool, well I guess I'll just stop wasting time on upgrades to gear too. It doesn't make or break my combat capabilities. Full pink power ranger ftw.

People already diversify on their own because of the merit system. ...... Shouldn't people who focus on a few jobs get to be stronger with them?

No. If I put in more time / effort into my jobs, you shouldn't get to be better just because my other jobs got capped. Most sams have the same merits, and if they don't, they aren't getting invited to many things on sam are they?

You missed the point of the statement.

I really didn't. You said they didn't expect it to happen. They knew people would cap merits. They are the ones who added all the new ways to exp faster. They just didn't compensate for it. They are adding more to the merit system, and it shouldn't be done this way.

There is no reprecussion for decision making if you can get it all eventually anyway. .... but specialization is one of them and that cannot be denied.

Lets be very clear here. Everyone can technically get everything in the game. It doesn't just apply to merits. Everyone will not cap everything. Just the things they need for their jobs. You keep acting like people are going to automatically get fully capped merits in every category for free.

They didn't change the EXP gain to say "hey, you can play all 20 jobs now, and you have to!" They did it because the game is old and growth speed is always increased as MMOs get older, so that newer players who join can catch up to the existing players. ......

People are talking about the merit system like it's broken or something, when it's not. Customization is bad! Same is good!

Everyone has the same merits now. There is none of this customization you talk about. People just don't play the jobs that they can't merit because un-merited jobs suck. Who wants to be gimp all the time?

[Return1]

Apex? Get a Gandiva.

Not everyone wants to bother with a Gandiva. Newer testing shows that Jishnu's is retard strong. The only use for Apex is ridiculously strong High Evasion/Defense mobs. That and SAM. Still useful and arguably the best outside of Jishnu's.

Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.

Same stupid argument? Well, Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi outside abyssea really comes down to mob defense, and crit rate. Blade: Shun has a better WSC mod with 100% DEX, and a higher fTP value, the only thing in Hi's favor are Shun's attack penalty and crits. So for events where you rip through a lot of low defense trash mobs, Shun is a great tool to have. Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, Nyzul, etc for example.

Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.

DRKs, and on this board in particular, are pathetically bad in general. As a fairly amazing long-time DRK myself, I can vouch for it being 100% better than every scythe WS by miles. Catastrophe with a 90+ Apoc was handily our Strongest Scythe WS. Now Entropy is. In the past an INT mod may have been less than desirable but today INT gear makes for wonderful WS piece. Twilight Helm, Twilight Mail, Relic +2 hands, Dilaram's/Bale +2 Sollerets for example all have great INT boosts and are amazing for WS. All jobs get access for good INT Rings, Earring, and Ammo. The neck and waist are always Belt/Gorget so that's a wash. So INT mods are not so lol anymore, and that goes for almost all mods but CHR anymore.

TL;DR: The DRKs who think Entropy sucks for a Scythe WS are retards. I would not be surprised if they don't gear for INT because they think INT mod only affects MP drain.

Requiescat? Get an Almace.

Requiescat sucks, but if it didn't have that -20% attack, it could be a sturdy WS. As it stands, it's current main use is for BLUs wanting to close Self Darkness with Quadrastrike for ridiculous numbers, which actually makes it very useful. Keep making the "get this weapon argument".

Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.

Get a Spharai you gimp!

See how that works?

You can't even say that it's not the same either, because nowadays you can easily pump out gil for a relic in the same amount of time as it takes to farm your own Empyrean.

Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're Wrong.

You won't find a DNC or THF worth a damn that has anything bad to say about Exenterator. It's the best unstacked outside abyssea and if you're worth a damn, most of your WSes are likely to be unstacked. The mods is damn amazing too.

Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys.

BST is kinda a big deal now. Lots of people have or are leveling it because it's pretty useful for soloing anything just about anything in the game, it's also now a legit heavy DD thanks to new pets that kick ass, compared to the old weaklings they had before. Ruinator is amazing 5/5.

Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.

The situation is outside of abyssea, then yes, Last stand is situationally useful. As endgame starts to finally balance out, you're going to see even more magic resistant mobs coming. It also depends on Buffs/debuffs on the target and the job using the gun. For example on RNG you have to be in a pretty poor situation on a mob with no magic damage resistance for Wildfire to pull ahead. Otherwise you'd use a big ass gun and a big ass bullet and use Last stand.

Fun side note: On trash mobs THF can play with multihit daggers and a culverin and spam last stand like a KC RNG in the old days. No real point but it's pretty fun.

"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.

Tachi: Shoha, Stardiver, Entropy, Resolution, Ruinator, Exenterator, Shijin Spiral, and Last stand are at least situationally if not ALWAYS the strongest WS of their weapon type outside of abyssea. That qualifies them as fucking awesome.

Blade Shun is pretty damn close to awesome, it's a solid upgrade barring Kannagi

Apex, Upheaval, and Requiescat are situationally useful.

Realmrazer is just sad and lonely hoping someone's taking WAR/PLD/SAM to apollyon SE lol.

You've shown you know very little about a lot.

[Return1]

So essentially your argument is I think these jobs are useless so any powerful WSes for them sucks?

God you're a gigantic retard.

And so is your Get <Item> Argument, like you're gonna solo it fast if you have a life (the having a life argument is valid here because if you have a life sitting in a room by yourself fighting polygons by yourself for hours on end is just...), or your group is going to be cool farming you every time you want to pick up a job, before you.

Of course you think THF is useless in content where Exenterator would be used, like Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus, all things where TH plays a large role and have been or will soon be upgraded.

Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.

Entropy isn't so far behind Resolution as you would think. Resolution is ahead in fTP, and the STR mod is better than Entropy's INT mod, though not by nearly as much as people imagine today. But the tradeoff is the -8% ATK, and slower WS due to a 6-hit vs 5-hit.

The best DRK DD setup involves Apoc and Entropy builds.

The only reason most DRKs complain about Entropy is that they suck.


Though it's hyperbole, a SCH with a 15fTP and 300%STR WS would be the best DD in the game, but people like you would still call it useless. Which is funny because thet's the position BST is in now as a DD. It's actually pretty high up there thanks to gear/pet/ability advancements, but fools still disregard it.

[Greatguardian]

So essentially your argument is I think these jobs are useless so any powerful WSes for them sucks?

God you're a gigantic retard.

And so is your Get <Item> Argument, like you're gonna solo it fast if you have a life (the having a life argument is valid here because if you have a life sitting in a room by yourself fighting polygons by yourself for hours on end is just...), or your group is going to be cool farming you every time you want to pick up a job, before you.

Of course you think THF is useless in content where Exenterator would be used, like Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus, all things where TH plays a large role and have been or will soon be upgraded.



Entropy isn't so far behind Resolution as you would think. Resolution is ahead in fTP, and the STR mod is better than Entropy's INT mod, though not by nearly as much as people imagine today. But the tradeoff is the -8% ATK, and slower WS due to a 6-hit vs 5-hit.

The best DRK DD setup involves Apoc and Entropy builds.

The only reason most DRKs complain about Entropy is that they suck.


Though it's hyperbole, a SCH with a 15fTP and 300%STR WS would be the best DD in the game, but people like you would still call it useless. Which is funny because thet's the position BST is in now as a DD. It's actually pretty high up there thanks to gear/pet/ability advancements, but fools still disregard it.

RL card some more. Calling mediocre WS "good" just because you don't have anything better on your personal character is like calling Raging Rush superawesomez because getting a Ukon is "hard". What happened to Relics/Emps being easy to grind out? We had agreed on that point up until this post, unless you were just kidding and actually think that's a reasonable boon to the WS.

Extenterator should almost never be used in Dynamis unless you're doing Arch NMs, and we have no idea where Nyzul and Limbus changes will leave the job. Current Nyzul changes look like complete and utter trash, so it may not be relevant at all. How does Dynamis flow? Sit and try to proc mob > Proc > Run behind it > SA Mercy > mob is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Not one-shotting things with SA Mercy? Seriously, suck less.

A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear, abilities, or traits to back up the power of the WS. You'll never, ever cap cRatio on SCH and you sure as hell aren't going to be TP'ing or WS'ing in any reasonable setup. A 300% STR WSC is extremely gear-dependent, and if there's one thing SCH certainly isn't overflowing with it's STR/DD gear.

WS can look "neat" on paper all they want, they'll still be completely irrelevant if you actually look at their context. I'd like to see what you consider "high up there", but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".

But sure, go ahead and backpedal/AdHom more. Ukko's and Smite are powerful because War and Mnk are powerful. Those are fucking awesome WS because they're actually used properly by fucking awesome jobs. Stringing Pummel is irrelevant because the only job that gets it is PUP, which is like saying "Hey, I can swing a bat like Babe Ruth, I'll just have to roll to first base with my wheelchair. MLB scout me please?"

Oh yeah, and really, the other 9 WS are so far entrenched in sidegrade-ism that "fucking awesome" is the absolute last thing I'd use to describe them. They're fine for mediocre players who can only do mediocre things like EXP but can't handle actually acquiring anything better. That doesn't make them awesome - just a crutch.

[Alhanelem]

Not everyone wants the same merits though.

Which is why you get to choose. Thanks for proving my point.

Cool, well I guess I'll just stop wasting time on upgrades to gear too. It doesn't make or break my combat capabilities. Full pink power ranger ftw.

Ridiculous extremes do not enhance your argument. Also, job specific merits are not at issue: only the global ones are.

Most sams have the same merits, and if they don't, they aren't getting invited to many things on sam are they?

Such a person doesn't care that they aren't getting invited to many things on SAM. They only have it there for when another SAM is not available within their group/linkshell.

They knew people would cap merits. They are the ones who added all the new ways to exp faster. They just didn't compensate for it. They are adding more to the merit system, and it shouldn't be done this way.

Please point me to the proof that they "knew" this. They knew a few hardcore elitists with no life would do it. They don't balance most of the game around hardcore elitists, because they are a very small percentage of the population.

Everyone will not cap everything. Just the things they need for their jobs. You keep acting like people are going to automatically get fully capped merits in every category for free.

With the current rates of EXP gain, that's not far from the truth. Maintaining these limitations is the only way to keep the distinction between characters that they originally provided. You seem to forget that the merit system was ADVERTISED to be a way to customize your character. If you can get everything, then there's no real customization now is there?

People just don't play the jobs that they can't merit because un-merited jobs suck. Who wants to be gimp all the time?

Actually, not-fully-merited jobs do not "suck." Maybe to your standards, but not to normal person standards. Not meriting a combat skill doesn't cut your damage in half or make your job nonfunctional. You won't perform *as well*, but you can still do what's needed in a pinch if someone who did merit that stuff isn't avialable. The whole goddam point is to make people different.

---------------------------

A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear

Actually, that's ridiculous enough that people would end up trying to use it. SCH also isn't totally without ways to boost its combat stats (though not by enough for normal purposes, for an insane WS like that, it would be a big deal). Adloquium for a little extra TP, Firestorm (with merits) for extra STR (+7 STR would be +21 BD on fantasy WS) sub WAR get beserk/warcry/attack bonus... say you took 15.0 fTP and 300% STR fTP mod and applied that to retribution- that's more than 5 times stronger than the Retribution would be at 300% TP and would be at least acceptable damage with a "weapon" staff instead of a stat stick.

You give someone some ridiculous mods, people will find a way to exploit it. Being on a job that sucks at melee or a crappy weapon isn't going to be enough to stop it.

but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".

Is it really necessary for you to be so inflammatory? I haven't even said anything.

[FrankReynolds]

Which is why you get to choose. Thanks for proving my point.

Ok, I choose to cap 15/15 strength Dex and INT. Can you show me where I do that in the menu? no? guess I don't really get to choose do I? I can either pick being a mediocre DD or a mediocre mage. That's really not much of a choice at all. Take a look at the census. Everyone is meriting the same crap. Removing these caps does nothing but allowing people to play their jobs a little better (IF They choose to invest the time to merit them).

Such a person doesn't care that they aren't getting invited to many things on SAM. They only have it there for when another SAM is not available within their group/linkshell.

Really? Your telling me that it's impossible that that guy could want to cap his merits?

Please point me to the proof that they "knew" this. They knew a few hardcore elitists with no life would do it. They don't balance most of the game around hardcore elitists, because they are a very small percentage of the population.

uhhhh....People who have gone to abyssea exp parties are not a small percentage of the population.

If you can get everything, then there's no real customization now is there?

I was unaware that they added the free relic moogle to the live server so that everyone could have mythics relics and empys at their disposal. Do people not have to earn / quest gear anymore? Is there a new moogle that gives you every piece of gear and leaves nothing up to you but picking your merits? Did they make it so that you automatically get capped merits now?

Since when are the merits the only way to differentiate yourself from another player (not that they do that now. I guarantee that you have nearly the same merits as most other people)?

Actually, not-fully-merited jobs do not "suck." Maybe to your standards, but not to normal person standards. Not meriting a combat skill doesn't cut your damage in half or make your job nonfunctional. You won't perform *as well*, but you can still do what's needed in a pinch if someone who did merit that stuff isn't avialable. The whole goddam point is to make people different.

Actually, since you believe that everyone has the same gear, and there is nothing left to differentiate them but merits..... not having the merits does in fact mean that they suck. Merits can't be unimportant to performance, and also be the only means to differentiate characters at the same time. They are either important or they unimportant. If you don't think they make a significant difference in play, then you should have no reason to care if I cap them all.


Why is being different so important to you? You should be worried about being good. If being good means doing something that no one else thought of yet, then you should do it anyways. They will catch on. If being good means wearing the same gear as everyone else, then you should do that too. Merits are performance enhancements. You can always get a funny T-shirt or something if you want to be different. All this different talk really sounds like "I want to be better than the next guy, but he has access to the same stuff as me ; ;". Isn't him being WHM and you being a Puppet master enough difference?