Requiescat on PLD

[Motenten]

Ok, not sure how I got them equal before. Doing some checking now, CdC is about 20% ahead of Reqs until att approaches cap (if Berserk is up; 30% if it's down), at which point they close in to tied or with Reqs a small bit ahead. I must have had a stray bit of additional attack left in somewhere.

Checked, though, and did not accidentally set the fTP to carry through on additional hits.


Comparing point-by-point to see where any differences lie.

Reqs: 4-hit, 1.0 fTP
CdC: 3-hit, 2.25 fTP

Favors CdC a small bit

Reqs: 100% mnd WSC
CdC: 60% dex WSC

Favors Reqs. A decent gear set I put together gives CdC a 73 WSC while Reqs gets a 127. Overall base damage (without fTP) is 148 CdC, 198 Reqs (4 of the difference in WSC is lost to higher fStr with the CdC build), so 33% advantage to Reqs there.

Reqs has 20% att penalty (mitigated slightly with TP), which is about a 15% reduction in damage with Berserk up, to a 23% reduction in damage with Berserk down (with a relatively high cRatio either way). Penalty effect increases as cRatio goes down.

CdC has crits, which you can expect to add at least 20% to weaponskill damage.


The high WSC makes up for a good chunk of the difference, but overall the weaponskill has serious issues.

Even at its worst, it should still beat Vorpal, but that's hardly high praise.

[saevel]

Actual in-game use has shown Req losing to vorpal, mostly due to attack issues. I can see Req beating vorpal on things with low defense and no LCF, the attack penalty is mostly irrelevant at that point and crits mean less. But once your start approaching 1.5 and less then that penalty really starts to rape your damage. Also did your gear set automatically assume things like capped accuracy / fSTR / dDex?

Most of the things we can be expected to fight and have damage matter have 450 ~ 470 or so defense. High defense mobs tend to have 550ish. At 800 attack (BLU/WAR food + zerk) your looking at 1.77 Ratio before LCF and ~1.5 on a regular monster 5 levels higher. 1.45 on a high defense mob and 1.2 if it's 5 levels higher. With Req that 800 attack turns into 640 attack for 1.42 on the EM and 1.17 if it's 5 levels higher. That's a 24% drop on the EM and 28% on the +5 level monster. Anything that crits will bump that number even higher due to the crits raising the Ratio so much.

What are the exact numbers your feeding to get Req nearing CDC and beating Vorpal. There is something either not right in there, or some unrealistic situations. I'm saying this because I have all three of those WS's along with corresponding builds for them and Req never gears near Vorpal much less CDC. I'm main handing a 90 Almace and off handing the 99 Shikagar +11 STR +22 Attack weapon. How much DA / +Crit are you using, is it just a random number or from available gear?

In your previous SD vs DB comparison I dug through your math and saw how much the -20% attack was crippling a STR based four hit critical Polearm WS. There would be an even greater amount of crippling going on here (4+1 100% MND WS -20% attack vs 4+1 30% STR Critical Hit WS vs 4.25 + 1 60% DEX Critical WS).

[Ophannus]

Does CDC have an attack bonus? I always see it rocking things it should be failing on even without temps and on RDM.

[saevel]

Does CDC have an attack bonus? I always see it rocking things it should be failing on even without temps and on RDM.

Exact opposite. It has a hefty attack penalty to the tune of Attack -20%. Thus if you have 650 attack, then your really WSing with 520 attack. Four hits at 100% MND WSC isn't bad, it's actually pretty decent for jobs that have tons of MND gear, but the attack penalty makes it nearly useless vs anything mildly difficult. It's only saving grace so far is that it ignores some resistances like Invincible and the -DT from slimes and undead.

[Arcon]

Does CDC have an attack bonus? I always see it rocking things it should be failing on even without temps and on RDM.

Exact opposite. [..]

I think you misread? He was asking about CDC, not Requiescat.

[saevel]

I think you misread? He was asking about CDC, not Requiescat.

Yeah just noticed that, we were talking about Req.

As far as I know CDC doesn't have one, but wouldn't surprise me if it did. It does have the usual +15% crit at 100, which when stacked with high amounts of dDEX lead to crits on nearly half the hits. It's first hit is also 2.25 fTP and has the usual acc bonus that first hits tend to get. If that hit crit's then your looking at a big CDC number, if it doesn't then it's a mediocre number, and if it miss's then it's a low number.

It's more a combination of being a high DEX modded Crit WS that just happens to have a powerful first hit.

[Ophannus]

Well when I see a 2.5 modifier I view it as being really 2 hits of 1.0 modifier. So if CDC is a 2.5 for the first hit and 1.0 for the extra 2 hits, it's really similar to Vorpal which is 1.0 for 4 hits, and I've seen some awfully impressive CDCs in VW that exceed or match something like Drakesbane which is done from a weapon with double the base damage, where attack shouldn't be an issue with Bard and Stalwarts.

[saevel]

Well when I see a 2.5 modifier I view it as being really 2 hits of 1.0 modifier. So if CDC is a 2.5 for the first hit and 1.0 for the extra 2 hits, it's really similar to Vorpal which is 1.0 for 4 hits, and I've seen some awfully impressive CDCs in VW that exceed or match something like Drakesbane which is done from a weapon with double the base damage, where attack shouldn't be an issue with Bard and Stalwarts.

Not quite. For doing napkin math adding all the fTP valued together is fine (2.25 is CDC btw not 2.5). CDC is three hits first being 2.25, so 2.25 +1 +1 for 4.25 worth of fTP. It has a critical hit bonus of approx 15% at 100TP and a 60% DEX WSC. Thing is the first hit has an acc bonus like most WS's do, so 95% hit on that 2.25 fTP hit. This isn't possible for two 1.0 fTP hits as the highest hit change you'll have is 90.25% (.95^2). CDC's crits are what cause it to shine so much, especially if your procing DA's.

[Greatguardian]

The acc bonus isn't doing anything for the first hit if you're assuming that the subsequent hits have 95% acc each anyways. I'm not really sure what you're trying to demonstrate. Maybe that the 2.25 fTp on first hit makes it roughly equivalent in value to both of the subsequent 1.0 fTP hits combined? Understandable, but the acc bonus doesn't come into play here. Just accuracy's cap.

Probably just nitpicking.

[Dragonlord]

I've seen some awfully impressive CDCs in VW that exceed or match something like Drakesbane which is done from a weapon with double the base damage, where attack shouldn't be an issue with Bard and Stalwarts.

This is due to drakesbane having a -20% atk penalty just like requiescat. In addition drakesbane has some where between a 5%-10% crit rate bonus where CDC has 15%. This is why CDC can pull ahead of drakes on high end mobs.