WHM/RDM

[Arcon]

Penury is kind of crap too, unfortunately. Maybe good for WHM, not sure, but last I checked it never stacked with Fast Cast which gives it a big negative.

Celerity is the casting and recast time Stratagem, if that's what you meant. I don't even know if they stack to be honest (not an issue for me), but if it does then it's not very rewarding for RDM. For WHM it's useful in certain cases (as I mentioned, Raise, Reraise, Teleports, etc.).

A little off topic but /RDM does get access to Raise.

So does /SCH, and also Reraise, unlike /RDM.

SCH is the better subjob but for me it's always been a little confusing with all the different job abilities and because no one I know is really doing VW yet because of how sucky the outcome is. I normally stick to /RDM in Abyssea. With 20 MP per tick refresh I rarely run out of MP and when I do have an oh shit moment, just convert and burn through another 2k of MP if needed (rarely is). /RDM is simpler for me, I would say?

It's not simpler at all. SCH has many JAs, but none of them are even needed to make it more efficient for WHM than /RDM is. Just hit Light Arts once and enjoy all the benefits for two hours. You can time it perfectly with Afflatus Solace that way. If you don't have a Refresher you may also want to use Sublimation, but it's just hitting one JA (or one macro), both for activation and for usage, which is easier to handle than casting Refresh (no magic aggro, no casting time, no interruptions) and doesn't cost you MP. Also, since you were talking about inside Abyssea, it's not even needed there. It's hardly even needed outside on pretty much all content except Voidwatch. So you just need to hit one JA every two hours, whereas on RDM you have to deal with Refresh and Convert all the time.

/RDM seems like the best sub for a BLM to me though, with bonus MAB IIRC, Fast Cast, Convert, more Refresh, Haste and Cure IV that WHM once kept now we get with /RDM @99 so I stick with /RDM but I don't know the full benefits of SCH either.

Depends how you play. For pure damage output, /SCH will win too. BLM gets no MAB from /RDM, the casting time is a bit lower, but the recast time is larger. MP conservation with /SCH is better in general, Dark Arts will reduce MP cost in general by 10%, Parsimony will reduce MP cost by half, and you can use it every two minutes, Aspir can be AoE'd (and won't wake sleeping mobs, making full MP recovery possible in some cases), and Sublimation will provide about as much MP as Refresh.

However, /RDM has an edge for soloing in that it has Gravity, Phalanx (nice for hoarding mobs to AoE them, think for trials), as well as Cure IV and Haste now at sub level 48. /SCH only gets Reraise as a utility spell over /RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Celerity is the casting and recast time Stratagem, if that's what you meant. I don't even know if they stack to be honest (not an issue for me), but if it does then it's not very rewarding for RDM. For WHM it's useful in certain cases (as I mentioned, Raise, Reraise, Teleports, etc.).

AHAHAHA I'm a bad SCH, I got the stratagems mixed up.

[Komori]

I'm not one who looks into the actual details of things. So does Haste on BLM from /RDM still fall short of Dark Arts reduction to recast etc? I tend to use Gravity and Phalanx often on BLM as I normally solo to cap azure while everyone is setting up and getting pops for boss. Technically a BLM can just play with Sleep and Sleep II (or even the sleepgas) to negate needing Gravity on most things. And it's probably safer that way (even with Gravity, some mobs like to close the cap a bit quickly, and on spell-casting mobs if you didn't stick Silence, or it's worn. It leaves you open to damage).

[Economizer]

For those off topic BLM mains:

So does Haste on BLM from /RDM still fall short of Dark Arts reduction to recast etc?

Haste (15%) + Fast Cast (7.5%) > Dark Arts (10%). But if you aren't solo, you should probably have someone casting Haste on you.

Something nobody has mentioned is that /SCH gives access to weather spells and Klimaform as well. That means more accuracy for your spells and if you have the right gear (Obi + Twilight Cape) you get a 15% multiplicative (with your bonus from your staves) bonus to your nukes (all except thunder, dark and light based spells). That said, for Black Mage main, the choice isn't as cut and dry as White Mage main - sub job choices will be more situational by far.

As before, the best sub for White Mage is Scholar. Red Mage is competitive in certain situations but is mostly the weaker sub, but I would put it in the same tier of usefulness and not discriminate party choices based on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

For those off topic BLM mains:



Haste (15%) + Fast Cast (7.5%) > Dark Arts (10%). But if you aren't solo, you should probably have someone casting Haste on you.

Something nobody has mentioned is that /SCH gives access to weather spells and Klimaform as well. That means more accuracy for your spells and if you have the right gear (Obi + Twilight Cape) you get a 15% multiplicative (with your bonus from your staves) bonus to your nukes (all except thunder, dark and light based spells). That said, for Black Mage main, the choice isn't as cut and dry as White Mage main - sub job choices will be more situational by far.

As before, the best sub for White Mage is Scholar. Red Mage is competitive in certain situations but is mostly the weaker sub, but I would put it in the same tier of usefulness and not discriminate party choices based on it.

Speaking of, How does Haste work with Fast Cast? I'll assume it's not done in the way such as 15% Haste + 30% Fast cast (15% Recast) = 30% Recast reduction

[Economizer]

Speaking of, How does Haste work with Fast Cast? I'll assume it's not done in the way such as 15% Haste + 30% Fast cast (15% Recast) = 30% Recast reduction

Recast reduction stacks with haste (Haste + gear haste but I don't think from marches?) as long as you are not weakened (haste has no effect while weakened iirc).

There used to be a cap of 50% but that was recently changed, so it is higher now.

I know a lot of White Mages don't gear for it anymore but throwing on a bit of Haste gear can make a world of difference on your recast timers. Personally I've been eating the enmity increase on the Goading Belt, but there are other belt options (Witful Belt, Swift, Ninurta's Sash) that are available.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Oh, cool! I thought it'd end up being multiplicative, so would work out less with both Fast Cast and Haste.

The gear certainly helps with spells like Haste and Refresh for RDM, though we lose 6 slots thanks to emp now still less casting.

[Economizer]

A bit more then that actually, since Composure hurts recast timers (25%). Composure is still the job ability I'm most jealous of Red Mage having though (for combat anyways).

[Komori]

Really happy about the information posted in this thread; for both my BLM and WHM. I do have SCH @50 just for being sub but I see everyone /RDM on Bismarck and always figured it was the better choice but thanks for the insight.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Yes, it's good. WHM/SCH is better though.

It is conciderably better, but, there are few ocassions where you need slightly more MP fixing.