WHM/RDM

[Jerbob]

I find it hilarious at this point that a WHM would even complain about "losing" Regen mastery to SCH. I do disagree with RDM only being stuck with Regen II at this point. There's nothing "unbalanced" about RDM not being able to get a third tier, especially when they'll still be weaker with it vs. WHM or SCH.

I am genuinely bemused every time I see this. SCH is obviously the best at casting regen spells now, and White Mage's spells are simply not worth casting. White mage has quite clearly lost its mastery over regen to SCH. Aside from the fact that it's yet another set of spells that SCH has quite literally stolen, it represents a massive loss of potential for other regen casting jobs.

Regen deserves a bonus across the board. Red Mage deserves access to at least Regen III, and I would personally say IV, as you say. The spell should scale in duration and potency with enhancing magic. I would further argue that White Mage deserves access to Regen V. The fact that these things are now SCH exclusive means that regen will remain borderline useless for Red Mage and White Mage from now on - wasted potential. SCH has not only stolen the spells, and the mastery - it's stolen the ability to effectively use the spells for the forseeable future. Uniquely. That's not something that should be ignored. If someone can give a good reason for this complete locking out of an entire line of spells then I would honestly love to hear it - nothing that has been said so far justifies this decision by SE aside from laziness on their part.

Regen could be reformed into a fantastic tool with minor adjustments. A simple potency and duration increase, having it not tick down on targets at full HP, and some creative ideas like having an active regen effect "buffer" a fatal strike so that regen can be used as an MP efficient, quick casting, low enmity and above all SAFE healing solution for people not taking damage. But whatever fixes are implemented, they should be universal to ALL jobs who cast regen - otherwise there is simply no point in having the spell in the game. As it stands it simply does not work.

The trouble with all arguments that are in favour of giving SCH unique access (or stolen access) to any spells or tools in the game rely on SCH being a "tactician". Tactical use of magic, specialising in certain fields as required. This isn't as simple as White Mage specialising in restorative/holy magic or Black Mage specialising in destructive/self-serving magic. Using magic tactically means using the right magic, which by extension in SCH's case means being able to cast all magic at a decent potency when needed. There is literally nothing you cannot justify giving to SCH if you go by its professed speciality, as it is - quite literally - a speciality in everything, when you need it.

I've also seen people justify giving SCH mastery over regen based on the job initially learning the spells earlier than White Mage when it was introduced. That just throws back SCH's theft to the moment of its introduction - it doesn't make it acceptable. I'm all for giving SCH unique tools - unique in the sense that they're not potential adjustments to other jobs that SCH has vacuumed up - but to do that it has to have a defined role. Needless to say, "casting other job's spells better than they can" is not really a valid role.

[Aleste]

Bleh, wrote a bunch of junk only to press backspace and loose it all >.>;

If you're looking a reason as to why SCH gained regen mastery over whitemage, I would probably put it down to it fitting the style of SCH more than giving it any other healing option. That and giving them Cure V would be so hideously broken it isn't even funny.

When you consider that there are only a small handful of ways to deal with healing.

Mitigate it via phalanx/stoneskin/some sort of pdt spell/scherzo(/migawari)?
A pdt spell would seem more like a RDM thing, and you can see how up in arms they are about SCH phalanx-ja being 'better' than the merited phalanx2. Either that or steal spells from other jobs.

Heal it directly instantaneously via a higher tiered cure?
I did the math somewhere about SCH (with current gear) getting Cure V. Well geared ones will belt out ~1,500+ consistantly, and that's excluding rapture.

Or recover it over time via regens?
Which, let's face it, fits the theme of SCH and their general over-time theme.



Personally I'm not really bitter over loosing the 'mastery' over regen spells... they were rarely used at 75 and only got worse as levels increased.

[Jerbob]

I can appreciate that SE were trying to sort out SCH's percieved lack of healing ability. There was something wrong with how the job was working, and I won't deny that. I just wish that there was something more creative than just lifting a set of spells directly from other jobs, slapping it onto SCH and calling it fixed. It's not fixed. SCH is a peg without a hole to fit in, partywise, as things stand. SE would do far better making support casters more valuable in parties - but that would require some thought and work, whereas repackaging regen did not.

I won't deny that some of my bitterness comes from this being the latest event in a massive string of SCH-related insanity that has affected me, directly or indirectly, as a White Mage. But in this case (in stark contrast with my spite-motivated refusal to sub SCH :P) I think there's definitely reason to be annoyed. Yes, regen is not every effective at the moment. The issue lies in the fact that there's now never going to be a universal fix because SCH has claimed regen as its own. I was really hoping for something nice to be done with regen, and now that's not going to happen. That's the real tragedy of this whole thing, in my opinion.

Short story short - Regen isn't that versatile or efficient at the moment. Before SCH laid claim to it, there was potential to have it become a powerful tool again (should SE decide to apply a pinch of creativity). Now, it's not going to happen. Even if SCH having more powerful regen than White Mage doesn't sit badly with people (which is incomprehensible to me, but it seems to be popular opinion so there must be some merit to that point of view), the loss of potential is an indisputible downside.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I can appreciate that SE were trying to sort out SCH's percieved lack of healing ability. There was something wrong with how the job was working, and I won't deny that. I just wish that there was something more creative than just lifting a set of spells directly from other jobs, slapping it onto SCH and calling it fixed. It's not fixed. SCH is a peg without a hole to fit in, partywise, as things stand. SE would do far better making support casters more valuable in parties - but that would require some thought and work, whereas repackaging regen did not.

I won't deny that some of my bitterness comes from this being the latest event in a massive string of SCH-related insanity that has affected me, directly or indirectly, as a White Mage. But in this case (in stark contrast with my spite-motivated refusal to sub SCH :P) I think there's definitely reason to be annoyed. Yes, regen is not every effective at the moment. The issue lies in the fact that there's now never going to be a universal fix because SCH has claimed regen as its own. I was really hoping for something nice to be done with regen, and now that's not going to happen. That's the real tragedy of this whole thing, in my opinion.

Short story short - Regen isn't that versatile or efficient at the moment. Before SCH laid claim to it, there was potential to have it become a powerful tool again (should SE decide to apply a pinch of creativity). Now, it's not going to happen. Even if SCH having more powerful regen than White Mage doesn't sit badly with people (which is incomprehensible to me, but it seems to be popular opinion so there must be some merit to that point of view), the loss of potential is an indisputible downside.

I was more annoyed WHM stole it from RDM, I could care less now SCH (rightfully) have taken it from WHM. That job does too much, it needs a slap.

Mitigate it via phalanx/stoneskin/some sort of pdt spell/scherzo(/migawari)?
A pdt spell would seem more like a RDM thing, and you can see how up in arms they are about SCH phalanx-ja being 'better' than the merited phalanx2. Either that or steal spells from other jobs.

It isn't anymore it's equal, though SE should raise Phalanx II above Phalanx. (I don't class Accession > Phalanx as better just more convenient)

[Jerbob]

White Mage gained the more powerful regen spells a few months after the inception of the first tier Regen spell, and while I agree that this was unfortunate for Red Mage, the fact that the intervening time was rather short makes it difficult to compare White Mage's original takeover of regen from Red Mage to SCH's theft now. White Mage has had much longer period of mastery than Red Mage had, and Red Mage's possession of a single low potency spell could hardly be regarded as mastery at all. In addition, the spells themselves (and their capabilities and drawbacks) have been established for far longer. I would say that the two events are comparable, but not directly so; this also ignores the fact that SCH's exclusive possession of regen enhancements has a potentially very negative impact on regen for other jobs in future updates.

As an aside, I'd actually be fully in favour of Red Mage recieving the majority of the regen spell tiers in the future. I assume you're talking about White Mage "doing too much"? I would certainly not disagree with you - I'm a career White Mage and I completely disagree with our blatent theft of Addle from Red Mage. I also question the decision to give us access to Boost-XXX spells (which I will stress that I enjoy having, but have a thematic issue with). If White Mage is to lose aspects of its domain under the guise of it being able to do too much then I would much rather lose my newer "auxiliary" tools that don't directly contribute to party defence and restoration - which would make sense - than miss out on powerful enhancements to a line of spells that mesh directly with White Mage's role.

Conversely, if you were referring to SCH being able to do too much and needing a slap, I would rather obviously agree with you without reservation. :P

With regards to Phalanx, I would certainly consider Accession >> Phalanx as superior to Phalanx II (assuming similar levels of potency). Convenience and speed of application is a very significant consideration when assessing the relative value of two similar spells. A relevant example would be the White Mage specific one of Divine Benison for ailment removal spells, which does nothing to improve the spells themselves but makes them far more convienent and quick to use, and therefore more effective.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sigh, type a post then delete it

White Mage gained the more powerful regen spells a few months after the inception of the first tier Regen spell, and while I agree that this was unfortunate for Red Mage, the fact that the intervening time was rather short makes it difficult to compare White Mage's original takeover of regen from Red Mage to SCH's theft now. White Mage has had much longer period of mastery than Red Mage had, and Red Mage's possession of a single low potency spell could hardly be regarded as mastery at all. In addition, the spells themselves (and their capabilities and drawbacks) have been established for far longer. I would say that the two events are comparable, but not directly so; this also ignores the fact that SCH's exclusive possession of regen enhancements has a potentially very negative impact on regen for other jobs in future updates.

As an aside, I'd actually be fully in favour of Red Mage recieving the majority of the regen spell tiers in the future. I assume you're talking about White Mage "doing too much"? I would certainly not disagree with you - I'm a career White Mage and I completely disagree with our blatent theft of Addle from Red Mage. I also question the decision to give us access to Boost-XXX spells (which I will stress that I enjoy having, but have a thematic issue with). If White Mage is to lose aspects of its domain under the guise of it being able to do too much then I would much rather lose my newer "auxiliary" tools that don't directly contribute to party defence and restoration - which would make sense - than miss out on powerful enhancements to a line of spells that mesh directly with White Mage's role.

Conversely, if you were referring to SCH being able to do too much and needing a slap, I woulKu

But in all this the only job it truly suited was RDM, as it was the HP equivalent of their Refresh line. WHM was given it simply on the basis it's MP conserving sucked, and it couldn't even heal very well in a normal party structure. Similar to SCH who only now recieved the line not because of the Helix spells but because SE saw how overpowered SCH could become with Cure V.

I was referring to WHM when I said it needed a slap.

More convenient, after I just checked Phalanx II is actually superior now, sort of, (by one lame point) at 500 Enhancing Skill. But Phalanx II should still be upped to the minimum of 40 points of damage. Then a style could be created.

WHM Cures the damage.
SCH Regen's the damage.
RDM mitigates the DMG (maybe even Stoneskin II as party targetable).

That said this was originally a /subjob thread, and I've gone really off topic.

[Rewyen]

RDM is a good sub for BLM. Gives a slight INT boost which is great for non-mage specific races like Galka, though I would wager that /SCH would be better in any situation and race because RDM is more of a mage support and focuses more on DoT/Enfeebling magic, so if you're a solo player, /RDM is great for a NIN main if you don't have DNC available yet.

[Jerbob]

Simplifying the roles of jobs to that level is always difficult because most things can be justified. I could argue that White Mage's primary role is to restore HP efficiently, with high potency and with low enmity penalties, and thus any white magic that does so should be available to them. It doesn't really get us anywhere, though. We can make hypotheses forever regarding why a certain job possesses a certain spell or spell line and another doesn't, but what is more important is where we go from here.

I think it's unhealthy to force jobs into roles that specific, to be honest - especially when SCH is more than capable of putting out some pretty healthy healing numbers using (admittedly limited) strategems when necessary. SCH and Red Mage are better classified using a broader label such as "support casting" jobs - Red Mage with specialisations into enfeebling and self-enhancing (which I will be the first to point out that SE has broken horribly) and SCH with specialisations in... pretty much everything, unfortunately. SE needs to work on giving support casting jobs tools that make them worth placing in parties alongside the specialist casting jobs (White Mage and Black Mage) rather than having us all bicker amongst ourselves when we steal each other's roles and spells. This would mean concessions on both sides, but with benefits for both sides as well.

I wouldn't object to SCH specialising in regen if another job didn't clearly already possess such a specialisation. I'm not saying that regen doesn't fit SCH, I'm saying SCH does not have an exclusive right to it. Regen should not be SE's "quick fix" for SCH, just as SCH's claim to regen should not completely destroy any potential for the spell to be improved for other jobs.

I am sensing that an "agree to disagree" conclusion is inevitable here, which is very unfortunate.

[Economizer]

blatent theft of Addle from Red Mage

Nothing was blatantly stolen from anyone because nothing was stolen. Red Mage has issues but none of them were ever White Mage being good at what it does - including being able to use light enfeebles on occasion. Honestly, if I wanted a mob to be enfeebled, I'd still invite a Red Mage, or perhaps the other jobs that keep getting enfeebles that Red Mage isn't like BLU, COR, or BRD - White Mage getting something that Red Mage has does not equal taking it away.

Scholar started by getting Regen spells at earlier levels long ago, and Regen spells became severely outdated for White Mage as White Mage finally got the much deserved MP efficiency on our key spell line - even a WHM without /SCH will destroy a SCH at MP efficient cures these days, as it all should be. Even if WHM got Regen V, it would still be MP inefficient for WHM, even with taking useless merits and getting the incredibly useless AF2+2 body which has useless increased Regen potency effects. Furthermore, one could argue that SE would have never released Regen V if it wasn't for Scholar... I certainly know they never had any plans of reducing the casting time like they did for White Mage, which is my sole frustration on the WHM side of the deal. Should Red Mage get Regen III? Yes. Should Red Mage get Regen IV? Probably. Should White Mage get Regen V? Who cares?

All three jobs, RDM, SCH and WHM need varying level of adjustments to up their power levels still - White Mage is not overpowered and in fact needs adjustments that could be considered buffs at this point, but is clearly very close to where they should be in terms of healing, enhancing and enfeebling. If anything, the issue is that Red Mage to a lesser extent, Scholar, are not where they should be in certain fields.

[Jerbob]

I certainly don't disagree with that. Regen is terrible for White Mage at the moment. As I have said, though, SCH's new "mastery" of the spell line has made it very difficult / unlikely for SE to actually make regen worthwhile.

Regen is broken for White Mage currently. There is no point in casting it. That's not how things should be. In practical terms, access to Regen V is currently meaningless for White Mage one way or the other (as you have said). I don't think it's too much to hope that the regen line can be fixed so that having access to Regen V as a White Mage is an asset, as regen once was. As long as SCH holds this (badly thought out, in my opinion) mastery over regen this won't happen. That is the irritation that I'm talking about.