WHM/RDM

[Komori]

A little off topic but /RDM does get access to Raise. SCH is the better subjob but for me it's always been a little confusing with all the different job abilities and because no one I know is really doing VW yet because of how sucky the outcome is. I normally stick to /RDM in Abyssea. With 20 MP per tick refresh I rarely run out of MP and when I do have an oh shit moment, just convert and burn through another 2k of MP if needed (rarely is). /RDM is simpler for me, I would say?

/RDM seems like the best sub for a BLM to me though, with bonus MAB IIRC, Fast Cast, Convert, more Refresh, Haste and Cure IV that WHM once kept now we get with /RDM @99 so I stick with /RDM but I don't know the full benefits of SCH either.

[Arcon]

Penury is kind of crap too, unfortunately. Maybe good for WHM, not sure, but last I checked it never stacked with Fast Cast which gives it a big negative.

Celerity is the casting and recast time Stratagem, if that's what you meant. I don't even know if they stack to be honest (not an issue for me), but if it does then it's not very rewarding for RDM. For WHM it's useful in certain cases (as I mentioned, Raise, Reraise, Teleports, etc.).

A little off topic but /RDM does get access to Raise.

So does /SCH, and also Reraise, unlike /RDM.

SCH is the better subjob but for me it's always been a little confusing with all the different job abilities and because no one I know is really doing VW yet because of how sucky the outcome is. I normally stick to /RDM in Abyssea. With 20 MP per tick refresh I rarely run out of MP and when I do have an oh shit moment, just convert and burn through another 2k of MP if needed (rarely is). /RDM is simpler for me, I would say?

It's not simpler at all. SCH has many JAs, but none of them are even needed to make it more efficient for WHM than /RDM is. Just hit Light Arts once and enjoy all the benefits for two hours. You can time it perfectly with Afflatus Solace that way. If you don't have a Refresher you may also want to use Sublimation, but it's just hitting one JA (or one macro), both for activation and for usage, which is easier to handle than casting Refresh (no magic aggro, no casting time, no interruptions) and doesn't cost you MP. Also, since you were talking about inside Abyssea, it's not even needed there. It's hardly even needed outside on pretty much all content except Voidwatch. So you just need to hit one JA every two hours, whereas on RDM you have to deal with Refresh and Convert all the time.

/RDM seems like the best sub for a BLM to me though, with bonus MAB IIRC, Fast Cast, Convert, more Refresh, Haste and Cure IV that WHM once kept now we get with /RDM @99 so I stick with /RDM but I don't know the full benefits of SCH either.

Depends how you play. For pure damage output, /SCH will win too. BLM gets no MAB from /RDM, the casting time is a bit lower, but the recast time is larger. MP conservation with /SCH is better in general, Dark Arts will reduce MP cost in general by 10%, Parsimony will reduce MP cost by half, and you can use it every two minutes, Aspir can be AoE'd (and won't wake sleeping mobs, making full MP recovery possible in some cases), and Sublimation will provide about as much MP as Refresh.

However, /RDM has an edge for soloing in that it has Gravity, Phalanx (nice for hoarding mobs to AoE them, think for trials), as well as Cure IV and Haste now at sub level 48. /SCH only gets Reraise as a utility spell over /RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Celerity is the casting and recast time Stratagem, if that's what you meant. I don't even know if they stack to be honest (not an issue for me), but if it does then it's not very rewarding for RDM. For WHM it's useful in certain cases (as I mentioned, Raise, Reraise, Teleports, etc.).

AHAHAHA I'm a bad SCH, I got the stratagems mixed up.

[Zarchery]

I've been meaning to level SCH sub, but I just haven't taken the time to figure out how the job works. I levelled it to 30 just for the job emote, so there's not TOO much further to go to get it up to 50 (yeah I know the cap for subjobs is 49, but I like to get my subjobs to 50 because it's a nice round number). Just to show you how clueless I am about SCH, I levelled it to 30 (totally solo BTW) by subbing BST and charming stuff, basically acting like a second rate Beastmaster.

I do RDM sub anywhere outside Abyssea, or in anything in Abyssea that's gonna require Dispel or might be remotely challenging.

[Fredjan]

I've been meaning to level SCH sub, but I just haven't taken the time to figure out how the job works. I levelled it to 30 just for the job emote, so there's not TOO much further to go to get it up to 50 (yeah I know the cap for subjobs is 49, but I like to get my subjobs to 50 because it's a nice round number). Just to show you how clueless I am about SCH, I levelled it to 30 (totally solo BTW) by subbing BST and charming stuff, basically acting like a second rate Beastmaster.

l o l, that made me laugh. But here's some advice if you want to get it taken care of:

SCH takes more effort to use as a support job but it's far more rewarding than /RDM. I'd advise taking it to 50 playing it as a Scholar, not a /Beastmaster. That way you get a feel to how to use it better.

Speaking of round numbers, I wish the final level cap was 100 >_>. I feel the same way about that, yet considering reality at this point, if I have something at 49 already, I don't see the point in taking it up another level unless I'm going to take it all the way up.

I don't even bother. Teleport-Mea/Dem/Holla and use the book warp... It isn't hard to get tabs and they cap out at 50k anyways so it works.

Ah, I forgot about tabs. I never do FoV or GoV these days, so I suppose I forgot about that. That's another option as well. Either way, point still stands about /BLM for "warping home faster". The last time I /BLM'd for Warp was when I traveled to goblins for 100 pieces or visiting Switchstix for Apocalypse (In other words, doing nothing serious).

Easier access to Sleep, and you get Sleep II, Ice Spikes, and Phalanx without throwing away the more sustainable MP pool that Red Mage or Scholar have. Very situational but useful regardless.

Situational indeed, given I'd only cast Sleep/Sleep II on a mob resistant to Repose. I understand it's got it's uses, but it shouldn't ever be considered a primary sub, which is the impression I get from people choosing to use it.

/RDM is basically for easier access to spells that are more difficult to make use of /SCH when the situations arise for it. Ice Spikes? I don't even remember the last time I casted that.

That being said, I've yet to run into a situation that'd make me want those spells enough to warrant choosing the support job option.

Another perk that isn't one you should sub it for, but a nice bonus anyways - Dark Arts not only boosts your Aspir/Drain spells but it also allows you to use a Twilight Cloak more effectively... probably the best nuke White Mage gets.

Haha, I forget about Twilight Cloak. That is true. Nifty facts, go.

Anyone else refuse to use /SCH out of pure spite? :P

It's a terrible, terrible thing. I know this. But I still have a chip on my shoulder about pretty much every single aspect of what SCH is. It drives me crazy when every update SCH recieves something unique that would better suit another job, jobs or a blanket fix (most recent example: regen), "pre-emptively steals" spells or abilities that better suit or are needed by other jobs (pretty much every JA at 75), or steals spells from another job with no concern for job uniqueness, balance or just simple respect for the role other jobs play (elemental enhancing magic [stoneskin etc], tier V spells, Regen V, -na, the list goes on). It's insult enough that another job is introduced that is entirely based on casting other job's spells better than they can - having to then sub it for best results is just irony gone mad.

When /RDM became more practical I was overjoyed that I could play White Mage with a non-SCH subjob that filled the gaping void in WHM's arsenal - MP recovery - but I'm always acutely aware that /SCH just gets better and better as time goes on. It's a little ridiculous that /SCH has a positive effect in almost every single aspect of White Magery - the latest slap in the face being B+ enhancing magic for Boost spells on top of the barspell bonus I've lamented about for a long time.

I'll stress it again - a terrible reason, and one I certainly omit when advising new White Mages, but I've come across a few people who have leanings in the same direction when it comes to White Mage subjobs.

At least you admit it's a terrible reason. I tend to deal with people that think /rdm's automatically better because it has Convert and Refresh.

It helps your main job come home faster.

When I'm traveling around Vana'diel, sure. /BLM is weaker than both /RDM and /SCH in performance. Thus I see zero point unless I'm subbing it for Stun or the Sleep I/II/Sleepga line of spells.

You can do AoE Sleep with /SCH too, only takes a bit more effort. But if you're really there for crowd control, there's rarely any uncontrolled circumstances (takes two seconds before use).

Similar to Dispel use, yeah, except it'll require 2 charges to use (DA + Addendum: Black + Manifestation) instead of 1 for Dispel. In that case I'd rather /BLM, doesn't require you to wait until you have 2 charges available (or 1, if you're already under Addendum: Black) when situations like that arise that are more frequent.

Well WHM stole Regen from RDM in the first place, fair is fair.

I find it hilarious at this point that a WHM would even complain about "losing" Regen mastery to SCH. I do disagree with RDM only being stuck with Regen II at this point. There's nothing "unbalanced" about RDM not being able to get a third tier, especially when they'll still be weaker with it vs. WHM or SCH.

[Economizer]

SCH takes more effort to use as a support job but it's far more rewarding than /RDM.

Popping Light Arts and using Sublimation as neccisary is arguably easier then prepping for Convert and keeping up Refresh. Managing Stratagems isn't any harder then managing a Haste cycle and is about twenty billion times more fun, at least for the Stratagems that White Mage has available - absolute worst case you could just sit on them and only use Celerity for Raise III and if you are really advanced, a Penury for the occasional Cure V or Curaga spell.

[saevel]

Popping Light Arts and using Sublimation as neccisary is arguably easier then prepping for Convert and keeping up Refresh. Managing Stratagems isn't any harder then managing a Haste cycle and is about twenty billion times more fun, at least for the Stratagems that White Mage has available - absolute worst case you could just sit on them and only use Celerity for Raise III and if you are really advanced, a Penury for the occasional Cure V or Curaga spell.

I think he's referring to the smart use of Strategems. Now that WHM's can do Boost-STR and DEX, /SCH pretty much wins vs anything else. Half MP cost on Curaga IV / V is golden, or a super fast cast on Raise (if the damn idiot DD didn't have RR item). Or super fast cast on your own RR should it get dispelled / fall off mid fight.

[Komori]

I'm not one who looks into the actual details of things. So does Haste on BLM from /RDM still fall short of Dark Arts reduction to recast etc? I tend to use Gravity and Phalanx often on BLM as I normally solo to cap azure while everyone is setting up and getting pops for boss. Technically a BLM can just play with Sleep and Sleep II (or even the sleepgas) to negate needing Gravity on most things. And it's probably safer that way (even with Gravity, some mobs like to close the cap a bit quickly, and on spell-casting mobs if you didn't stick Silence, or it's worn. It leaves you open to damage).

[Economizer]

For those off topic BLM mains:

So does Haste on BLM from /RDM still fall short of Dark Arts reduction to recast etc?

Haste (15%) + Fast Cast (7.5%) > Dark Arts (10%). But if you aren't solo, you should probably have someone casting Haste on you.

Something nobody has mentioned is that /SCH gives access to weather spells and Klimaform as well. That means more accuracy for your spells and if you have the right gear (Obi + Twilight Cape) you get a 15% multiplicative (with your bonus from your staves) bonus to your nukes (all except thunder, dark and light based spells). That said, for Black Mage main, the choice isn't as cut and dry as White Mage main - sub job choices will be more situational by far.

As before, the best sub for White Mage is Scholar. Red Mage is competitive in certain situations but is mostly the weaker sub, but I would put it in the same tier of usefulness and not discriminate party choices based on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

For those off topic BLM mains:



Haste (15%) + Fast Cast (7.5%) > Dark Arts (10%). But if you aren't solo, you should probably have someone casting Haste on you.

Something nobody has mentioned is that /SCH gives access to weather spells and Klimaform as well. That means more accuracy for your spells and if you have the right gear (Obi + Twilight Cape) you get a 15% multiplicative (with your bonus from your staves) bonus to your nukes (all except thunder, dark and light based spells). That said, for Black Mage main, the choice isn't as cut and dry as White Mage main - sub job choices will be more situational by far.

As before, the best sub for White Mage is Scholar. Red Mage is competitive in certain situations but is mostly the weaker sub, but I would put it in the same tier of usefulness and not discriminate party choices based on it.

Speaking of, How does Haste work with Fast Cast? I'll assume it's not done in the way such as 15% Haste + 30% Fast cast (15% Recast) = 30% Recast reduction