Welcome Back Tanaka !

[Ravenmore]

Yes the forums do repersent the player base just like polls can any large group of people. People are voting with their money. For any Final Fantasy tilte to do that bad in Japan its a sign of decay. I have seen what happens when owners don't listen to what the customers want.

[Potyhoty]

Yes the forums do repersent the player base just like polls can any large group of people.

*facepalm* No, no, no. The forums are a very small sample size with, like I said, a HUGE self-selection bias. Any pollster worth their salt would NOT draw conclusions based on a poll that covered even 10% of the player base, to say nothing of the other methodological problems involved. Not to mention that there's no confidence interval or anything. Really careless. Please learn some stats or at least experimental design before you start shooting off at the mouth about that.

Yeah, FFXIII-2 is a sign of decay. There was also a recession and a tsunami, which would have had their long-term effects too. Deciding that this is all about "not listening to the customer" is fundamentally arrogant and misguided. Not saying it's a bad theory, but CONCLUDING IT based on this fragmentary evidence is a bad idea.

[Ravenmore]

*facepalm* No, no, no. The forums are a very small sample size with, like I said, a HUGE self-selection bias. Any pollster worth their salt would NOT draw conclusions based on a poll that covered even 10% of the player base, to say nothing of the other methodological problems involved. Not to mention that there's no confidence interval or anything. Really careless. Please learn some stats or at least experimental design before you start shooting off at the mouth about that.

Yeah, FFXIII-2 is a sign of decay. There was also a recession and a tsunami, which would have had their long-term effects too. Deciding that this is all about "not listening to the customer" is fundamentally arrogant and misguided. Not saying it's a bad theory, but CONCLUDING IT based on this evidence is a bad idea.

People will also be unwilling to waste their money on a comapy that is refuse to get with the times. far to long they have traded on name alone and the fact they sold over a millon copies of 14 and only 30k play it for free is another sign. They are now seeing that name alone has limits. Other people will just leave with out voicing thier reasons for dong so.

Something that SE should take time to add is a survay that is not a option when you cancel, a simple muti-chioce and a optional essay section.

[Potyhoty]

People will also be unwilling to waste their money on a comapy that is refuse to get with the times. far to long they have traded on name alone and the fact they sold over a millon copies of 14 and only 30k play it for free is another sign. They are now seeing that name alone has limits. Other people will just leave with out voicing thier reasons for dong so.

True enough.

Something that SE should take time to add is a survay that is not a option when you cancel, a simple muti-chioce and a optional essay section.

hmm. Yeah, I like the sounds of that. Not saying they'll do it, most people will probably be angry enough to just fill in whatever trolling comments they want, but it might be worthwhile if enough people cancel. Of course, then they'll have to deal with a bunch of whiners saying "I don't wanna" and calling SE to complain about it... but hey, you know? It might still be worth doing.

Nonetheless, there's still a self-selection bias because the people who don't quit don't have to fill out the survey, so the results are still skewed. That's why, in the science business, we say "The results support the hypothesis" or "The results fail to support the hypothesis", NEVER "The results PROVE the hypothesis".

[FrankReynolds]

*facepalm* No, no, no. The forums are a very small sample size with, like I said, a HUGE self-selection bias. Any pollster worth their salt would NOT draw conclusions based on a poll that covered even 10% of the player base, to say nothing of the other methodological problems involved. Not to mention that there's no confidence interval or anything. Really careless. Please learn some stats or at least experimental design before you start shooting off at the mouth about that.

Yeah, FFXIII-2 is a sign of decay. There was also a recession and a tsunami, which would have had their long-term effects too. Deciding that this is all about "not listening to the customer" is fundamentally arrogant and misguided. Not saying it's a bad theory, but CONCLUDING IT based on this fragmentary evidence is a bad idea.

So basically..... until SE shuts down the servers followed by a a mass firing of all Final Fantasy related staff members, and a formal apology citing their failure to listen to the wants of the customer base, backed up with their own statistics, and and pie chart for visual aid, you won't believe that the player base is pissed.

That's cool. Being as you have no statistical evidence to support your theory, and you are making statistical accuracy the point that you are arguing so vehemently in a forum almost entirely dedicated to how pissed people are... I'm gonna have to take everything you say as an attempt to provide misinformation. Just because people don't post on a forum doesn't mean that they don't feel the same way as the forum posters. Your attempting to make everyone believe that every person who does not post feels the same way that you do. However you don't represent the player base any more than the angry people do. Your argument is null and void.

[Potyhoty]

So basically..... until SE shuts down the servers followed by a a mass firing of all Final Fantasy related staff members, and a formal apology citing their failure to listen to the wants of the customer base, backed up with their own statistics, and and pie chart for visual aid, you won't believe that the player base is pissed.

Never said that. I never said that the player base WASN'T pissed. I said that THIS does not show that they are, and it's stupid and arrogant to CONCLUDE that they are, just like it's stupid and arrogant to CONCLUDE that they're not. What I believe is neither here nor there.

And no, a simple survey, while not perfect, would do a HELL of a lot more to get an idea of what the player base is thinking than reading any forums. There would still have to be some caution in interpretation, though, but there are statistical techniques to allow for this. Forums are for qualitative research only.

Your attempting to make everyone believe that every person who does not post feels the same way that you do.

Please show me where I said that. I actually agree with most people here on the issues themselves.

However you don't represent the player base any more than the angry people do. Your argument is null and void.

No, my argument is that it's wrong for us to ASSUME we know what the player base is thinking, and especially wrong for us to RAGE expecting SE to have the same little myopic picture that the forums provide. The argument you seem to think I was making IS null and void, though, you're right about that. And if someone were to rage at SE and saying "THE PLAYER BASE WANTS SAM TO BE UBER/TO KEEP VW DROPS RANDOM/ETC., WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO US?" I'd be just as angry, if not more so since I actually would disagree with that person.

[FrankReynolds]

No, my argument is that it's wrong for us to ASSUME we know what the player base is thinking, and especially wrong for us to RAGE expecting SE to have the same little myopic picture that the forums provide.

Being as they have only asked for a poll one time so far on anything content related, and they ignored the winning tally, I would say that they feel like they learn all they need to know about the way the players feel through the forum, and they don't care very much. As far as the usefulness of raging... I would rather people rage on here for change, in hopes of somehow convincing the devs to do things right, rather than have them silently speak with their wallets. Everyone likes to act tough and tell the angry players "good! Quit then! we don't need you anyways!" but the reality is that the fewer players there are, the smaller the budget gets. Eventually that leads to a game getting warrior nerfs at 99 instead of new expansions that warrior / white Mage can't duo.


The only honest arguments I could see against People venting on forums are :

A) What if we piss the devs off, and they just plain crap on us.
B) I just like to pick other peoples posts apart, knowing fully that I will never change their opinion.

A. is a pretty legitimate argument. What's telling is that no one has taken it seriously yet, because I think in all honesty, even the people who try to defend the devs know that the devs don't really care what we are talking about on here much.

[Potyhoty]

Being as they have only asked for a poll one time so far on anything content related, and they ignored the winning tally, I would say that they feel like they learn all they need to know about the way the players feel through the forum, and they don't care very much.

Well, I would argue they learned just as much or more based on server logs and job usage statistics, which they don't have to ask us for (assuming they're collecting them). Gives a more balanced picture, too... problem is that we don't have access to that picture, and there are very important things that that picture doesn't tell them anyway, which is where the forums are supposed to come in handy.

Giving us a poll would be a face-losing thing for them too. Too bad, because it would be really useful.

As far as the usefulness of raging... I would rather people rage on here for change, in hopes of somehow convincing the devs to do things right, rather than have them silently speak with their wallets.

Agreed. Like I've said before, I think complaining (even raging) serves a useful function. What drives me around the bend is raging based on the assumption that the majority agrees with you and therefore the other party is "ignoring" you in not complying. This is why I started out by talking about a "sense of entitlement". Raging itself is neither good nor bad in my books. That sort of myopic arrogance is quite bad.

And I considered saying something along the lines of a), but to be perfectly honest, the communication goes through so many channels that by the time it gets to the devs, the rage aspect of it is mostly insulated anyway. The community moogles are the ones who have to put up with us, and they're powerless to do anything. In order for it to be completely effective, the devs, including Tanaka, would have to participate in the forums themselves, which will never, ever happen.

Anyway, time to take a break. Need to get my heart rate down.