Seriously, VW loot system..come on.

[Brolic]

That is the exactly what the DEV team is trying to avoid. Ochain =/= Good PLD same holds for Aegis and for that matter Empyrean and DD. There are perfectly capable players with max magian weapons instead of empyrean, some even superior in flexibility within their job. For example a WAR who can tank (PDT, MDT, DT gear) and DD, even if the numbers don't match that perle WAR with Ukon. Empyrean/Relic =/= Good player, and players shouting should not expect or assume that. Conversely, lack of Empyrean/Relic =/= doesn't mean a player is not still well geared. Here is a hypothetical to consider, 5/5 +2 Ravager WAR with Ukko or a WAR with the same 5/5 +2 ravager but also -40% DT with upheaval and Magian PDT GA 99, in a situation where tanking may become needed and fanatics is unavailable? (If you include fanatics, may as well let the BLM tank)

what the hell is this shit

[Dreamin]

I dont think zinato understood what people are complainting here. We're complaining that SE is using resources working on stuff on VW that no one competent enough are having problems such as AOE death and lights capping. The issues are with the insane drop system that we have. I'm in the neighborhood of 0/200-0/300 on Pil and Qilin EACH. This Sat, I did Qilin and guess what I got 3/4 Neck Pieces (AGAIN) while there are people there that would/could use the neck pieces. But no, I ended up having to run away so the chest will despawn. Likewise on that same run, the same person got 2 boots (AGAIN). And I would have loved to pick up a pair myself.

The point is that these aren't hard fight at all. The AOE isn't an issue, capping lights isn't an issue. The ONLY issues are these insane drop. Camata seems to understands this, but for whatever reason, the DEV doesn't. Or they understands but they refuses to fix the damn system. People has asked for alternatives such as some sort of point system so that if you win let say 500 fight on the same NM, you should be able to BUY one of those ra/ex drop that you want. As it is now, lots of ppl on my server dont bother doing VW anymore because they have gone beyond 0/500+ without seeing any of the ra/ex that they wanted.

Failed drop system is going to be the failure of VW. Not because of AOE and capping Lights.

As a side note, as Neisan_Quetz said, Good Players will be good regardless whether they have Emp/Relic/Mystic or not. But Bad Players will always sux regardless of how easy SE makes the game to be. Do you know how many people I see walking around with full white/pink gears with Emp+2 and Relics now a day?

[Damane]

I dont think zinato understood what people are complainting here. We're complaining that SE is using resources working on stuff on VW that no one competent enough are having problems such as AOE death and lights capping. The issues are with the insane drop system that we have. I'm in the neighborhood of 0/200-0/300 on Pil and Qilin EACH. This Sat, I did Qilin and guess what I got 3/4 Neck Pieces (AGAIN) while there are people there that would/could use the neck pieces. But no, I ended up having to run away so the chest will despawn. Likewise on that same run, the same person got 2 boots (AGAIN). And I would have loved to pick up a pair myself.

The point is that these aren't hard fight at all. The AOE isn't an issue, capping lights isn't an issue. The ONLY issues are these insane drop. Camata seems to understands this, but for whatever reason, the DEV doesn't. Or they understands but they refuses to fix the damn system. People has asked for alternatives such as some sort of point system so that if you win let say 500 fight on the same NM, you should be able to BUY one of those ra/ex drop that you want. As it is now, lots of ppl on my server dont bother doing VW anymore because they have gone beyond 0/500+ without seeing any of the ra/ex that they wanted.

Failed drop system is going to be the failure of VW. Not because of AOE and capping Lights.

As a side note, as Neisan_Quetz said, Good Players will be good regardless whether they have Emp/Relic/Mystic or not. But Bad Players will always sux regardless of how easy SE makes the game to be. Do you know how many people I see walking around with full white/pink gears with Emp+2 and Relics now a day?

This sooo much this. While I got some stuff I wanted form VW (I consider myself lucky). I am out of voidstones... and I did VW since the Release. I am at over 500+ fights now. Lucky I got some stuff I wanted, but I miss some stuff I still want ¬.¬. I know people that are 300+ on kaggens body. Now I am 200+ fights on Akvan.... yaaaiiieee (and I didnt even start to farm the Zilart mobs...). This shit is really fucked up.

Even LS members come to help you, only to get their 2. identic ra/ex body and they cant give it to you...

[Zinato]

I should clarify it seems there is confusion. At no point did I oppose increased drop rates of any kind, in fact earlier in the thread I supported it. By all means players have every right to ask for any adjustments they deem worthy. Also I never at any point called players unwilling or choosing not to use Voidwatch in anyway lazy, as I don't think this is true. Additionally, I knew full well what I was doing speaking an unpopular opinion in a thread like this. "Finally, at risk of being hated by this entire thread, board and even my server."

Now then, at no point should empyrean/relic/mythic of any kind be a sorting feature on players. However, right now that is what is has become. I'm glad so many people have the top tier weapons and gear for every job they own, but the game is not only for you and other players deserve a shot at content too. I don't think many people are going to claim that a majority of players are well geared and good players. (also when I said "that perle WAR with Ukko" I didn't mean most players were white/pink/teal with empyrean, I ment even in white Ukko is often superior to all other form of WS) That said, if the game caters to the minority (the well geared ones) making all content require top tier items, that really will cause a decrease in subscriptions. Also I don't think that's what Neisan means as he said "there are no good players fulltiming perle or full Emp+2. " This implys only the highest class of gear and gear swaps and the knowledge to play a job make a player in the "good" catagory. The gear part wasn't even a part of my original statements it was a response to being told "great" gear is common which I bet many players would call false. But, since I bothered to respond, yes the DEVs want players without relic/mythic/empyrean to enjoy content too, even though a majority of the players doing Voidwatch and newer events won't allow that.

I am well aware the "fix" players seek is instant drop rate increases, a form of points to buy the items, a means to directly or indirectly give players r/x drops, or an overall pool. I just listed 4 ideas which would the DEVs pick if they had to? Who is going to complain if its not the method they seek? (I have been saying the forum is fighting itself in addition to fighting for a change.) What are the consequences of each change? Many posts simply say "add to pool spoils" quick fix end of discussion. However, would that not lead to the same item selling or the abyssea days allowing those with lots of money to gain what they seek and those without to still play the random chance game? (the very thing players were recently complaining about) On top of which I've said only the DEVs know how this will be concluded and that everyone only sees a part of the picture. (a image of water unsure if its the ocean, a pool or even a drinking glass) Players are jumping to conclusions and demanding this take priority over all other projects (even a simple programing change requires testing to ensure drops are coming at too high a rate, or that cures don't deal 9999 dmg) and that drop rates take priority over the content being enjoyed by as many as possible. For that matter we don't even know how loot is even distributed, there may be a reason some go 1/1 and others 0/400, as many have agreed the system is too random compared to other forms of event. Maybe plates take priority as a drop and if a plate drops and a body would have dropped the plate erases it. (if that's the case drop rates aren't the issue)

My goal here wasn't to protect the current system of Voidwatch, the goal was to was to point out that the DEVs are working at fixing Voidwatch, just not the things a player may personally want. (382 posts, including many repeating players, even the half dozen threads on the topic total come nowhere near a majority of our playerbase, this is not even a fraction of a percent. I said it once before, if players really feel the need for change many, many more people need to say something. In a "petition" of sorts each player has one vote which is cast by posting, and you can't speak for others just like you can't vote in an election for a non voting family member)
More importantly when a MOD comes to bring news of an adjustment and is met only with rage responses not even with actual feedback, just "that's not what I want go back and do it my way", that is when there are issues. It wouldn't surprise me in the least is the DEVs are keeping any adjustments on the subject a secret just to keep the peace. That is why I spoke, the attitude the thread gives is one of impatience, "My fix now or I keep raging" and after seeing the things said to the MODs bring good news, I choose to speak. I assure everyone they heard the request, repeating ourselves will do nothing but, frustrate everyone. If somehow my words were taken in any other way, I apologize.

[Dreamin]

Sorry if some of our posts to your previous responses sound harsh, but the biggest issues with SE isn't just this issue along. It's a clear pattern where they dont appeared to really listen to the playerbase's feedback at all. When the playerbase keep giving them feedback on things that needs or should be fixed but they go and fix something else that a much smaller population complaint about it's a major issues with those of us that actually took the time to post our feedback. [Or in some cases, such as the mess of the BST jug voting, seems to completely disregarded what the playerbase all together.]

[Zinato]

The problem goes both ways however, the reason for posting in the first place even at risk of such harsh responses, was because of the treatment the forum gave Camate after bringing news. (reading those seemed like nothing more then attacks on him and the devs, that's not cool and I'd do the same if it happened to a stranger on the street) If players are going to act in such a way, what reason does SE have to change anything? We were assured our concerns are being discussed, when and how it is acted upon is for a later time, it won't be this instant no matter how we feel. I want to try to ease frustration for players and DEV alike.

The first post was to try to highlight the good the changes do bring even if its not the final goal. The second was to inform of possible draw backs to a change in the system, in other words the same things the DEVs could be considering and therefore delaying response time. As much as we all wish simply replacing the number 1 with 10 would fix things I am 100% sure it is not that simple. The last post of actual information was ment to show there are current alternatives to bide time, for both completion of Voidwatch and possible adjustment SE may implement. After that it was just responding to responses. The gear shouldn't have even come up and when it did all really I ment to say was the DEVs want everyone to join in events, like how in the 75 era people in AF or random gear could still participate in Dynamis/Limbus/Nyzul and so on, after all you can't very well need top notch gear to get top notch gear.

Overall, the point to be made, though I most likely didn't make it clear enough. Is this is not the way to get what we want, much like the post I made earlier in the thread. (before the one that started this) The wording I chose was stronger because I felt that was what is needed for it to sink in, since the MODs message didn't seem to get through. I know its not the instant victory we all want but, they are looking into ways to help voidwatch before they resort to just changing things in both current, and most likely future installments. As I stated we only have part of the complete picture so, it is really hard for us to judge anything from our point of view as there are so many things we don't know. That puts us in a very bad place to make suggestions, and that only fuels the tension for this subject.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Now then, at no point should empyrean/relic/mythic of any kind be a sorting feature on players. However, right now that is what is has become. I'm glad so many people have the top tier weapons and gear for every job they own, but the game is not only for you and other players deserve a shot at content too. I don't think many people are going to claim that a majority of players are well geared and good players. (also when I said "that perle WAR with Ukko" I didn't mean most players were white/pink/teal with empyrean, I ment even in white Ukko is often superior to all other form of WS) That said, if the game caters to the minority (the well geared ones) making all content require top tier items, that really will cause a decrease in subscriptions. Also I don't think that's what Neisan means as he said "there are no good players fulltiming perle or full Emp+2. " This implys only the highest class of gear and gear swaps and the knowledge to play a job make a player in the "good" catagory. The gear part wasn't even a part of my original statements it was a response to being told "great" gear is common which I bet many players would call false. But, since I bothered to respond, yes the DEVs want players without relic/mythic/empyrean to enjoy content too, even though a majority of the players doing Voidwatch and newer events won't allow that.

If you are using 5/5 pink/perle you are lazy and a bad player when better gear that does not require maximum dedication is available and easy to make. If you are fulltiming gear you are lazy and a bad player and don't understand how game mechanics work. You don't need the best gear to not suck at this game.

[Zinato]

If you are using 5/5 pink/perle you are lazy and a bad player when better gear that does not require maximum dedication is available and easy to make. If you are fulltiming gear you are lazy and a bad player and don't understand how game mechanics work. You don't need the best gear to not suck at this game.

I think I am asking for trouble so, I simply ask this where do you put the line? I don't want to battle on something off topic, so I'll keep my opinion to myself. I am curious to hear what specifically you mean, if you are willing to share, if not I understand. Any job will do just a comparison around where the line is drawn.

I didn't/won't try to argue perle/pink/teal or those without macros are good.

[FrankReynolds]

Too long

It's all good to say it's gonna get better later, when later doesn't equal a year or two. People have been complaining about the same thing for months.

Right now it's like we're sitting in the stall right next to the Devs begging for some toilet paper, but they just keep offering to let us smell the perfume adds, and reading us uplifting stories from their issue of Oprah Magazine. That does't really help our situation.

When you see content laying on the ground bleeding out, you don't give it a haircut and a shave before you tend to the wound. We all fully understand that they "are discussing things". The time for discussion has long past.

Telling people they can't voice their opinions will always have exactly the opposite effect. If you really want players to stop telling off the devs, then do what the devs do. Ignore their questions, and derail the thread with posts about things that no one brought up.

[Frost]

Hmmm... Such a Zen moment in my head. I don't think I've ever disagreed with something someone's said, but agreed with the person saying it... (think about that for a while...)

Anyways.

To the comment that "poorly geared folks can be good"; or "people are being excluded because they are not 'best geared'."

First, since you appreciate analogies: If I am hiring a botanist to create a new stain of drought-resistant wheat for use in impoverished countries. Would I be wrong in being an elitist if I chose the guy with a couple degrees in Botany, Biology, Horticulture, Genetics, and has done work in the field, and has his own lab? Or the Pot-smoking hippy that knows a thing or two about growing plants in a basement?

Keep in mind it's MY reputation, and my funding and success of the venture rests on my decisions.

To relate that into general game terms... (and as someone has already pointed out) I have, as a leader, the luxury of patience. If I shout for Job "X", and someone in full perle (Pronounced: "PERIL") asks to join, I can assure you, if I shout just a little longer something better will come.

But that's not all.

Certain jobs, and certain specific shouts determine the success of a run.

Allow me to illustrate this point a little; you have two shouts:

"Voidwatch (Jeuno) T6 (Buburimu Peninsula) (Do you need it?). 6/18 (Anything) (welcome)"

"Voidwatch: Botulus Rex, 1/2 Ukon War, 2/4 Thundaja Blm, Need Wildfire Cors and Healers/Trigger jobs 6/18.

There's a couple things going on here:

1) The first one is letting anyone join.
2) The first one gives no indication there's a plan.
3) The first one through it's awkward use of Auto-Translate shows Communication might not be their priority.
4) The second one is showing signs of a currently working/acceptable strategy.
5) The specifics in the second shout show there's something specific about the Wars, either:
>> The Wars are there for high damage output.
>> The Wars need a certain degree of dedication/competence with the Warrior job.
6) The second shout shows there's been progress made in acquiring the jobs the leader thinks they need.

While I don't disagree that Voidwatch should be toned down a tad and the bar should be set at the "Average Player" I do take exception that the "Average Player" doesn't have at least one job that they can gear properly (I.E. No Perle, No Pink, etc...).

Requesting an Ochain or Aegis Paladin is not unreasonable. Considering how few good Paladins there are, the ones that are at least 'decent' have one or the other. The Good ones have both generally. Requesting one specifically shows not only YOUR GROUP, current members and future ones, that you're taking this seriously, but it sends a signal to the PALADINS that YOU are taking it seriously, upping the chances of getting a good one. You know what it does for bad paladins? It pisses them off. You know what a pissed off Paladin does? It shouts in Jeuno and on forums about "Elitism". You know what that does? You ever hear the old phrase: "Give em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves"?

And as to the drops...

Sure, you're right, clechè #2131225: "You can please some of the people, some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."

And there's a general divide on what people want that I think you're getting blurred. For every one person asking for an increase in drop rates, there's between eight to ten asking for "Add to Treasure Pool". They are not the same thing. Your insinuation that we don't think these things through is both kinda insulting and arrogant, as well as mildly ironic.

If you added "Add to Treasure Pool" the following happens:

>> When you get an item, congratulations you got the item, now you get a choice. It's STILL in YOUR chest it is YOUR item. But now IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

>> When you get another item you already have, you can share it or keep it if you want to spite the group. IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

>> If you're joining a shout group and they are 'selling' you the item and it drops in your chest, you're set, you have to be in the alliance either way. If it doesn't drop in your chest and you want to spend YOUR GIL on someone else's, IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

>> The worse thing that can happen happens in both cases: It doesn't Drop.

Crafters will still craft, for some reason people STILL buy NQ gear... Prices may go down a bit, but that helps the crafters' buyers. (There's two sides to that economic coin, supply, demand, etc...)

And in theory...

The drop rate on the item hasn't changed right???