What Atmas Do You Use?

[Invasion]

How you play, gear and how you clean your house is little interest to me. I'm purely stating VV atma has no place for Ninja, and that Apoc is far superior.

All your argument hold is if you are idle.

And yes it should be a standard Atma for DD jobs.

[Superchicken]

so you're in a situation where you have dd's that dont need to be tping on the NM your fighting, and they're role is simply to run in and dump tp, they should all be using APoc right? And i'm duoing an NM with myself and my alt whm, where i'm the tank/dd/only form of damage to apply to the NM, i should be using Apoc right? Hmm, w/e you say boss. We all know what they say about opinions.

Again, all atma are situational and up to the player to choose what they want to use, etc.

[Invasion]

Apoc will help you tank better yes.

[Superchicken]

its not gonna help me survive the chance of getting KO'd by tyrant tusk or getting hit from a NMs multi hit tp move.

[Belphantom]

Been using full afv3+2 gear with brutal, suppa, twilight iga neck/back and qirmiz with atmas RR VV and apoc (avg 3k jin), recently decided to drop VV and use sanguine scythe for the +30 crit dmg makes for a nice boost in dmg (on avg 4k ish jins)

edit: just saw someone say 50 dex isn't useful.... dont buy it, nin + dex = happy marriage

unless you don't like being a dd

[wish12oz]

Been using full afv3+2 gear with brutal, suppa, twilight iga neck/back and qirmiz with atmas RR VV and apoc (avg 3k jin), recently decided to drop VV and use sanguine scythe for the +30 crit dmg makes for a nice boost in dmg (on avg 4k ish jins)

edit: just saw someone say 50 dex isn't useful.... dont buy it, nin + dex = happy marriage

unless you don't like being a dd

For damage in general, Dex increases critical hit rate and acc. Both of which have a cap, both of which you will be at with cruor buffs, rr and normal average gear.

Also, Critical hit damage has a cap, 50%.
RR+SS is 60%, qirimiz tathlum is 5% and iga neck is 2%.
I'm going to assume you are smart enough to offhand kamone, which is another 10%.
You are either 17% crit damage above the cap, or 27% crit damage above the cap.

Please learn game mechanics before you try and advise other people, thanks.
RR GH and Apoc are your atmas for ninja (even without blade hi) to optimize your damage.

[Invasion]

Oh and VV will?

You've no idea what you're talking about, nor what you're trying to argue anymore.

[Superchicken]

did i say i used VV on mobs like sobek? NO. Did i say atma is situational yes. you said apoc is standard atma for dd. And in the SITUATION where i'm the tank and dd when i'm duoing something by myself where i'm playing nin and the whm then i'm a dd cause i'm dealing the damage. So yes i know what i'm arguing its that atma choice is situational and that Apoc is not a standard atma you should be using at all times when you are dd like you are saying.

If i'm on ninja and i'm farming up my Key Items for NMs is VV good yes because it gives me constant regain which helps when i'm building tp for things like raiden thrust, earth crusher, GK ws etc.

[Mojo]

Razed Ruins - Always, no matter what.
Gnarled Horn - Always, but I have Kannagi and solo/duo a lot, so the +50 AGI helps a lot. It's likely the best second atma choice for Blade: Jin users as well (I use it on Verethragna MNK and Victory Smite is a STR mod WS.)

The third atma depends on what I'm doing. If I'm in a DD situation fighting NMs and the like, which I often am, then Apoc almost always. Sometimes I replace this with Cloak & Dagger. I suppose if I was afking a lot then VV might be useful to have 100% TP at the start of every mob, but I can't foresee myself doing this very often. I do use Mounted Champion often for the Regen as it's nice when I'm solo /WAR (for red procs.)

Also, offhanding Kraken Club is questionable, at best. Here's a little napkin math.

The best case scenario for Kraken Club yields 1 hit per round mainhand 3.8 hits per round offhand. This would only ever occur if you were DNC subjob and using poor atmas, but we'll disregard that for the sake of this comparison. Using Atma of the Apocalypse, Twilight Belt, Brutal Earring, Epona's Ring, Double Attack from WAR subjob, and Atheling mantle yields 18% Triple Attack and 23% Double Attack. Assuming the distribution listed on studio gobli is correct, you're left with the following numbers of hits per round.

N	Kannagi	Club	Occurrence	Kannagi Hits	Club Hits
1	1	1	0.05		0.05		0.05
2	1	2	0.15		0.15		0.30
3	1	3	0.25		0.25		0.75
4	1	4	0.25		0.25		1.00
5	1	5	0.15		0.15		0.75
6	1	6	0.10		0.10		0.60
7	1	7	0.03		0.03		0.21
8	1	7	0.02		0.02		0.14
							
Total			1.00		1.00		3.80

Kannagi		Kamome
1.5486		1.5486

Finding the number of hits for Kannagi/Kamome was done by calculating Triple Attacks first and then calculating Double Attacks when Triple Attacks didn't proc (.18 * 3 + .82 * [ .23 * 2 + .77]). This is an assumption on how the game works, nobody really knows. Assuming Double Attacks overwrite Triple Attacks yielded a result within 2.75% of the one I listed.

Kannagi/Kraken Club total delay is 474 (1 round every 7.9 seconds, or 0.1266 rounds per second,) Kannagi/Kamome total delay is 400 (1 round every 6.66 seconds, or 0.15 rounds per second.) Ignoring haste/dual wield (will produce the same increase for both,) yields the following hits per second.

Kannagi		Kraken Club	Total
0.1266		0.4810		0.6076

Kannagi		Kamome		Total
0.2323		0.2323		0.4646

Factoring in delay and dual wield (assuming Iga Zukin +2, Ninja Chainmail +1, Suppanomimi and Rajas Ring) produces 4.6 TP per hit for Kannagi/Kraken Club and 4.5 TP per hit for Kannagi/Kamome. So you're left with 2.7950 TP/second on Kannagi/Kraken Club and 2.0907 TP/second on Kannagi/Kamome. Or, in otherwards, using the Kraken Club under optimal circumstances will only yield a 33.7% increase in TP gain.

Now, it's worth bringing up the very low DMG rating on Kraken Club. Assuming capped fSTRs for all weapons (which will definitely occur inside of Abyssea) leaves you with the following total DMG ratings.

Weapon		DMG	fSTR	Total DMG
Kannagi		56	14	70
Kamome		39	12	51
Kraken Club	11	9	20

You can factor this in with the hits per second to come up with a DMG/second number, which is odd but perhaps useful in this case for comparing melee DoT.

Kannagi		Kraken Club	Total
8.8620		9.6200		18.4820

Kannagi		Kamome
16.2610		11.8473		28.1083

So, going from Kannagi/KC > Kannagi/Kamome yields a 52.1% increase in melee DMG/second applied to the mob. This is a best case scenario for Kraken Club because it disregards Kannagi aftermath. Assuming you have the level 1 aftermath up 100% of the time, it's a 30% increase in DMG (on just the Kannagi.)

Kannagi		Kraken Club	Total
11.5206		9.6200		21.1406

Kannagi		Kamome		Total
21.1393		11.8473		32.9866

This yields a 56.0% increase in the same switch, and is the best case scenario for Kamome. So the observable number will fall between those two points.

I could provide some more napkin math on other facets of total damage output, but they're not going to mean much because those variables (pDIF, WSC, etc.) change too much from circumstances to provide useful ballpark figures. What you can conclude within a reasonable degree of confidence is this.

The increase in TP gain provided by offhanding Kraken Club is, at most, 33%. This won't always equate to 30% more weaponskills, however, because of things like TP overflow and holding TP because the mob has low health.

The increase in DMG/second by offhanding Kamome is around 51~56%. It's a reasonable measurement of optimal DoT from melee swings.

In this comparison, I ignored the effects that Kamome gives on critical damage. It's pretty big, that's the entire reason for offhanding Kamome. With RR & Qirmiz Tathlum you're looking at critical damage * 1.35 already. Kamome providing +0.10 to this yields a marginal gain of 7.41%. This increase would occur 74% of the time (with Gnarled Horn + Razed Ruins, 95% if you have Innin.) The actual DoT increase will be less than this, hard to say by how much without knowing a pDIF average.

I also made no analysis that the loss of 120 combat skill would have. You're losing a tremendous amount of accuracy and attack (108) on all of your offhand swings, which is the main source of your TP gain and, as it seems, melee DoT.

Lastly, your weaponskill damage will also be impacted by all of this. Hard to give good figures, but it would be significant. All in all, you are likely losing total DoT by using KC, not to mention unnecessary giving the mob more TP.

[Mojo]

Actually, there are right answers. The original question posted was this.

Just wandering what atmas I should be using as a nin DD or tank.

He clearly wants to know which atmas are the best for the situation described. The effectiveness of certain atma in certain situations isn't a matter of opinion. The situations can be reduced down to a simple comparison of atma effectiveness. For instance, Razed Ruins is always going to be better than any other atma if you're meleeing (which you will be in the situation the OP described.)

I encourage posters to go beyond the original question and post atma combinations they use for other circumstances, but the point remains that it's most often not a matter of opinion. Someone who is knowledgeable about game mechanics and atma will be able to quantitatively explain why one atma is better than another in a situation. Often players use atma/gear combinations without going through this process and simply shirk off the atma choices of others to opinion. That doesn't mean it's a matter of opinion, it just means they haven't thought about it enough and that there is a good chance their gut instinct is wrong.

Either way, some of the atma I use for other situations.

Nuking
MM/Ultimate/Hell's Guardian (sometimes I use RR on because I'm just finishing the mob off for Azure and RR increases the speed of this process greatly)

Aeolian Edge spamming (non brew)
Gales/Ultimate/Hell's Guardian

Aeolian Edge spamming (brew)
Gales/Ultimate/Smiting Blow