Ukko's on test server?

[Originalkord]

Procs is a garbage reason to bring a job, they should be able to be competitive in damage or they will always be left behind.

Wrong.

All this talk of damage dealing, and who should do as much damage as this class and why is ridiculous. It's all zerg mentality now. You mean to tell me its right for a THF or a DRG to do as much damage as a WAR or DRK? I used to never care which job was doing more damage than another job because the game used to be so much more than that. Merit parties were the only time I would let my e-peen hang out because thats the only time it mattered, and the only time showing off wouldnt get you raped (95% of the time anyway). Go ahead and feed massive tp to Cerberus and don't have stunners...you just lost your mob at 20%. Feed massive TP to Orthurs and don't have stunners...oh its ok, I have cure bomb, fire resist atmas, and an army of temp items.

There has always been a gap and jobs have always been excluded. If you were in an HNM shell and were gathering to camp, were you all tripping over yourselves to see who can come MNK and DRG? Probably not. Yes, I agree that proccing is a stupid reason to bring a job. It was a lazy, lazy thing to do instead of producing content where a proper party set up mattered again.

At things like faf/nid you'd have a party/alliance consisting mainly of PLD or NIN, RDM, BRD, WHM, BLM, SAM, THF (TH). You obviously needed tanks and needed support for those tanks for things other than cure bombs. SAMs were a popular choice because they could readily make skill chains for the BLMs to magic burst on top of. If you had a well geared WAR, sure they could come to, but when attendance was low, 2 SAMs was the best choice.

KB had a kiting strategy. So you had your kiter and support/nukes, but then you had a place for Ranged Attack jobs.

Tiamat would have your tank party, Mages/nukes, some kind of kiter for adds, and Summoners.

Similar setup could be done for Khimaira, except you can throw some rangers in there too. As with most fights that didnt require people to stand in a cluster, you could have THF helping to put hate on to tanks and managing enmity. But even if they were not doing that, they always had a spot for TH. If you had enough DD, or if your THF had a mandau, they probably were not on the mob full time to prevent TP spam.

Then there was dynamis, non-Odin Einherjars, and limbus. Provided you had enough people, those were the times where your DRGs and DRKs would show up as long as you had a "core" of useful jobs. Then if you were doing DL, that was DRK and WAR zerg time. Odin needed a full ally, with each branch of the ally being given a specific role.

Those are just a few examples. Not all jobs should be "competitive" with each other because not all jobs should be good for everything. If someone insists that they are only going to be ONE job forever--that's fine, but they need to know they will be, and should be, left out of content. You shouldnt need to worry about who is doing more damage than who because fights should be so much more than just that.

[Glacont]

Wrong.

All this talk of damage dealing, and who should do as much damage as this class and why is ridiculous. It's all zerg mentality now. You mean to tell me its right for a THF or a DRG to do as much damage as a WAR or DRK? I used to never care which job was doing more damage than another job because the game used to be so much more than that. Merit parties were the only time I would let my e-peen hang out because thats the only time it mattered, and the only time showing off wouldnt get you raped (95% of the time anyway). Go ahead and feed massive tp to Cerberus and don't have stunners...you just lost your mob at 20%. Feed massive TP to Orthurs and don't have stunners...oh its ok, I have cure bomb, fire resist atmas, and an army of temp items.

There has always been a gap and jobs have always been excluded. If you were in an HNM shell and were gathering to camp, were you all tripping over yourselves to see who can come MNK and DRG? Probably not. Yes, I agree that proccing is a stupid reason to bring a job. It was a lazy, lazy thing to do instead of producing content where a proper party set up mattered again.

At things like faf/nid you'd have a party/alliance consisting mainly of PLD or NIN, RDM, BRD, WHM, BLM, SAM, THF (TH). You obviously needed tanks and needed support for those tanks for things other than cure bombs. SAMs were a popular choice because they could readily make skill chains for the BLMs to magic burst on top of. If you had a well geared WAR, sure they could come to, but when attendance was low, 2 SAMs was the best choice.

KB had a kiting strategy. So you had your kiter and support/nukes, but then you had a place for Ranged Attack jobs.

Tiamat would have your tank party, Mages/nukes, some kind of kiter for adds, and Summoners.

Similar setup could be done for Khimaira, except you can throw some rangers in there too. As with most fights that didnt require people to stand in a cluster, you could have THF helping to put hate on to tanks and managing enmity. But even if they were not doing that, they always had a spot for TH. If you had enough DD, or if your THF had a mandau, they probably were not on the mob full time to prevent TP spam.

Then there was dynamis, non-Odin Einherjars, and limbus. Provided you had enough people, those were the times where your DRGs and DRKs would show up as long as you had a "core" of useful jobs. Then if you were doing DL, that was DRK and WAR zerg time. Odin needed a full ally, with each branch of the ally being given a specific role.

Those are just a few examples. Not all jobs should be "competitive" with each other because not all jobs should be good for everything. If someone insists that they are only going to be ONE job forever--that's fine, but they need to know they will be, and should be, left out of content. You shouldnt need to worry about who is doing more damage than who because fights should be so much more than just that.

Damn, I feel like you've read My Mind. You brought back alot of memories.

[Originalkord]

Damn, I feel like you've read My Mind. You brought back alot of memories.

God's honest truth though. That's why through this whole thing I've been saying that additional content that forces people in to roles again is needed. If not that, then they need to get creative with the other jobs to boost their appeal.

I was in a party on DRG the other day and realized that I never even bothered to take my wyvern out...there's an under utilized aspect of the job. So how about this--if we absolutely need to put jobs on a "competitve" level. If you're going to QQ about WAR being too strong and overshadowing your DRG, what would you say to having that stupid wyvern actually DEAL MORE DAMAGE to supplement what youre lacking in WS power? Don't you think thats a more attractive solution? The WARs stay happy and YOU get something COOL! Ukko's Fury, 5000 damage. Drakesbane 3000, wyvern 1k breath (with maybe some neat ability to control the element used based on the mob youre fighting), or maybe some kind of debuff to the mob? That seems cool to me.

[Dart]

Twash - is powerful if used correctly. Stacking with SA / TA & DNC can force crit. It is also a single handed weapon so you cannot expect to push the same amount of damage with a dagger as you can a great axe.

Redem - DRK has Cada, which can be farmed in much less time and deal quite a decent amount of damage. DRK is also a hybrid job, therefore should not excel in both abilities it has. (Deal damage & cast dark magic). Hybrids are good for more things, but excel in none.

Rhol - DRG has Drakesbane - and pretty much every DRG will tell you they are happy with it. If you ask me, Calm Torm is the best option they could have given DRG. A Wheeling Thrust +1, especially with these heavy defence VW mobs @99, I am sure they would be pushing out some ok numbers. Drakesbane didn't need to be replaced in my opinion. Once again, they are also a hybrid (ability to DD, heal, support, shed hate etc). Once again, can do more stuff - but excels in none.

Last thing, DRG / DRK's should have known what they were levelling into before levelling / playing it. DRK & DRG should never be as powerful as WAR or MNK as there needs to be a large difference between "hybrids" and "specialists".

MNK & WAR are DD's in it's purest form. All of their job abilities are related to dealing / taking damage. (Dealing mainly, with a few defensive options for when they do out-dd other jobs). All the other "DD's" are what I would consider hybrids.

Therefore WAR & MNK need to be on top of the pyramid for DD otherwise that would be amongst the many posts using the word thrown around a lot lately - "unbalanced".


*edit* forgot quotes but this was replying to the bunch of people saying "then why aren't the other weapons on glav / chlor path as powerful".....

This sir/madaam, is more then likely your major reason.

in regards to drk, you're speaking about it from a abyssea perspective, which isn't accurate. Apoc drk was one of the premier dd's in the game until abyssea came out. Please know what you're talking about!

[Alderin]

in regards to drk, you're speaking about it from a abyssea perspective, which isn't accurate. Apoc drk was one of the premier dd's in the game until abyssea came out. Please know what you're talking about!

I never said DRK wasn't a solid DD - and yes the days of the DRK K.club zerg, and Apoc - they had their place.

As far as "balance" is concerened, I am saying that there are 2x types of jobs. Hybrids and Specialists.

Hybrids have more traits / abilities / flexibility. Can do many things but excel in none.
Specialists have a single purpose. Can only really do one thing well.

ie I will repeat.

DRK can stun, absorb, drain, aspir, low tier nukes, while being able to deal reasonable damage.
WAR can swing their weapon and hit stuff..

I am fine with there being a gap. I believe that with Ukko's the gap was way too large. If the gap is too large there is no point to bring any other job than war to an event with adequate support, except for procs. Procs is a garbage reason to bring a job, they should be able to be competitive in damage or they will always be left behind. I thought the balance between drk/war/drg was fine at 75. My group parsed einherjars at 75, a great war would almost always be 1st. Now on parses its just whoever has Ukkos. Sorry you need a broken weaponskill to beat a drk or drg. That is what Ukkos is and always has been, broken. SE just finally woke up.

Ukko's and V.Smite is less broken then everyone seems to be making out. Only a few WAR's hit the really high numbers outside Abyssea. I was on RNG during a Kaggen run earlier today, we had 2x Ukons. I was on RNG with Gandiva and matched one of their dmg output in a parse on multiple kills. This is just one example.

When SAMs and DRKs can pursue a Tahrongi route to give Masa/Calad a weapon skill on par with Ukko's, this argument will be valid.

(also, Redemption says shut the hell up, Donnie)

Read the full thread before replying. Also not sure why your pulling the SAM card out. A well-geared Masa SAM was not far behind MNK at all pre-Shoha.

[Siiri]

I never said DRK wasn't a solid DD - and yes the days of the DRK K.club zerg, and Apoc - they had their place.

As far as "balance" is concerened, I am saying that there are 2x types of jobs. Hybrids and Specialists.

Hybrids have more traits / abilities / flexibility. Can do many things but excel in none.
Specialists have a single purpose. Can only really do one thing well.

ie I will repeat.

DRK can stun, absorb, drain, aspir, low tier nukes, while being able to deal reasonable damage.
WAR can swing their weapon and hit stuff..

None of the drk abilities listed have any bearing on a group event, so if SE lets them fall too far behind they will not be invited to a group event. I guess maybe stun, but usually you have Blue mages stunning these days, and stun rotation was always part of a black mage task in a group event. So while your argument sounds good I guess, in reality if war is averaging 3k on Ukko's and DRK is averagin 1.5k on Quietus you not bringing a DRK ever except for procs. Especially since WAR has better xhit options and can cap haste easier without losing acc like DRKS, in addition to more offensive oriented job abilities and traits.

Every time a DRK casts they lose a swing and fall further behind on parse. That being said, DRKs have asked for drk celerity, casting times to be reduced, worthwhile spells, if we ever got them maybe that big a gap would be justified. Just another failure of "balance" though by SE. Took the easy way out and nerfed Ukkos. Even in a duo most white mages would say just give me the war full out with retaliation, kill it a lot quicker than a DRK or DRG messing around with drains or jumps anway.

[Chriscoffey]

None of the drk abilities listed have any bearing on a group event, so if SE lets them fall too far behind they will not be invited to a group event. I guess maybe stun, but usually you have Blue mages stunning these days, and stun rotation was always part of a black mage task in a group event. So while your argument sounds good I guess, in reality if war is averaging 3k on Ukko's and DRK is averagin 1.5k on Quietus you not bringing a DRK ever except for procs. Especially since WAR has better xhit options and can cap haste easier without losing acc like DRKS, in addition to more offensive oriented job abilities and traits.

Every time a DRK casts they lose a swing and fall further behind on parse. That being said, DRKs have asked for drk celerity, casting times to be reduced, worthwhile spells, if we ever got them maybe that big a gap would be justified. Just another failure of "balance" though by SE. Took the easy way out and nerfed Ukkos. Even in a duo most white mages would say just give me the war full out with retaliation, kill it a lot quicker than a DRK or DRG messing around with drains or jumps anway.

Exactly when dark as all the potential and none of the reasons to cast. This reasoning people have because its a "hybrid" floors me when they haven't taken the time to use the job to see how much casting effects the job or reasons too.

[Brolic]

None of the drk abilities listed have any bearing on a group event, so if SE lets them fall too far behind they will not be invited to a group event. I guess maybe stun, but usually you have Blue mages stunning these days, and stun rotation was always part of a black mage task in a group event. So while your argument sounds good I guess, in reality if war is averaging 3k on Ukko's and DRK is averagin 1.5k on Quietus you not bringing a DRK ever except for procs. Especially since WAR has better xhit options and can cap haste easier without losing acc like DRKS, in addition to more offensive oriented job abilities and traits.

Every time a DRK casts they lose a swing and fall further behind on parse. That being said, DRKs have asked for drk celerity, casting times to be reduced, worthwhile spells, if we ever got them maybe that big a gap would be justified. Just another failure of "balance" though by SE. Took the easy way out and nerfed Ukkos. Even in a duo most white mages would say just give me the war full out with retaliation, kill it a lot quicker than a DRK or DRG messing around with drains or jumps anway.

when wars can bust out 900 cures for the cost of a bar-spell and solo tank any hmn in the game(yes i know they're far and few in between) with minimal support i'll agree that they should put out comparable numbers as drg and drk.

mock them all you want but these hybrid jobs have uses, just because they're not smash and bash like mnk and war are doesn't meant they're not valid.

more so nothing has changed, drgs and drks aren't being invited to kaggen to do anything other than proc, instead of 4 wars and 1 sam to proc people will just have 1 war to proc and 4 sams to dd tank.

[Vold]

"By more than 15%" wasn't why I farmed a Ukko's FuryUkon. "By more than 15%" isn't worth 175 NM kills(yes that's inflated figure it's more like 100 or whatever to account for 2x drops) + 1500 metal plates + whatever. But you guys go right ahead if you think it's worth it post nerf. I'm not your mother. I just know I'll finish my 90 ukon because it's going to nag at me if I don't do it someday after doing the work I already have put into it and I'll settle for Mr. Gimpy Empy lv90.

[Habiki]

They should have nerfed Razed Ruins crit rate before touching either V. Smites or Ukko's Furys crit rates. From what i've seen before the nerf outside abbyssea it was on par with other weaponskills, you had to really work to get good numbers, however inside abyssea there was no competition for highest dmg weaponskills ukkos and victory smite were king.

No matter what gear you wear merits skill w/e pre nerf in abyssea with Razed Ruin and a crit weaponskill your most likely gonna out dd any other ws that can't crit barring a few ws's. Outside there isn't enough gear to get a decent crit rate on weaponskills. Please undo the changes to V. Smite, Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage and put the nerf on Razed Ruin where it belongs, this will create a much greater game balance i think.