Thank you for Stardiver!

[Transmit]

Just did a few Pil's, heres the parse of my Stardivers from the first fight.

771: 1
778: 1
790: 1
890: 1
982: 1
1010: 1
1026: 1
1028: 1
1035: 1
1065: 1
^ 1080: 1
1121: 1
1154: 1
1173: 1
1185: 1
1238: 1
+ 1268: 2
1326: 1
1355: 1
1394: 1
1468: 1
1494: 1
1495: 1
1585: 1
1751: 1
1780: 1
2054: 1

Same gear used as the page before. Stalwarts + Yellow curry buns. Also Im still using Vougiers, so it's far from the best set up. Stalwarts is +20% attack for 5 minutes (went from 740ish to 922 attack with it up)

Out of 4 fights -

- Stardiver 66052 0 66052 93.85 % 57/0 100.00 % 0/2192 1158.81

57 Stardivers. 1158 average, a few of them without buffs / thrown directly into his shield (see 0 low...), and a high of 2192.

For comparison the only other noteworthy DD in my party was a SAM who switched between Fudo and Shoha...

- Tachi: Shoha 32661 0 32661 100.00 % 27/1 96.43 % 361/2610 1209.67

1209 average, low of 361, high of 2610.

[Returner]

"OAT has a higher delay, which somewhat offsets it's lower rounds per weaponskill. Overall weaponskill cycle time is 1095 delay for OAT, compared to 1400 for str polearm. So OAT weaponskills 28% more often than Str polearm."

This is where your problem is. There is no way, not a chance, that OAT is only WSing 28% more often. Yes, the longer delay offset the hit build slightly, but couple the lower hit build with the 40% OAT it should at least be 35% more often if we account for TP overflow. Not to mention you get 40% more TP from jumps as well.

Also, if conserve tp is such an important factor and that 5 hit is seemingly not as big of an advantage, you should try putting this in your spread sheet:

Using sword strap for OAT polearm and do a 6 hit. That way, you can better use your conserve tp and should allow for a better comparison.

Like I said, there is literally no way OAT only WS 28% more.

PS: You also need to account for extra TP making OAT polearm WS harder (even if just slightly). All of those conserve tp proc that didn't help OAT cut a hit from the hit build should result in 15+ extra TP on its WS as well as any TP overflow from OAT proc with 1 more hit to WS. I am not doubting your spread sheet since I know you from BG, but there has to be something that was not set correctly cuz I have parsed against STR polearm before and the result wasn't close.

[Motenten]

"OAT has a higher delay, which somewhat offsets it's lower rounds per weaponskill. Overall weaponskill cycle time is 1095 delay for OAT, compared to 1400 for str polearm. So OAT weaponskills 28% more often than Str polearm."

This is where your problem is. There is no way, not a chance, that OAT is only WSing 28% more often. Yes, the longer delay offset the hit build slightly, but couple the lower hit build with the 40% OAT it should at least be 35% more often if we account for TP overflow. Not to mention you get 40% more TP from jumps as well.

Note that I account for weaponskill delay in figuring the overall time per weaponskill cycle. The more frequently you weaponskill (both from OAT and haste), the more that the fixed delay from using the weaponskill itself slows you down.

Example:

Taking out all jumps, so that we're looking solely at melee+weaponskill time, look at the melee time necessary to reach 100 TP with 25% gear haste, Hasso and Haste spell:

Str: 1186
OAT: 902

OAT weaponskills 31.5% more often

With weaponskill delay added:

Str: 1306
OAT: 1022

OAT weaponskills 27.8% more often


Add marches and look again:

Str: 605
OAT: 461

OAT weaponskills 31.2% more often (appears to be roughly the same as the first comparison)

With weaponskill delay added:

Str: 725
OAT: 581

OAT weaponskills 24.8% more often (dropped an additional 3%)


You can also figure another ~7% loss due to less efficient usage of TP (see below), which puts you close to the 40% proc rate value before accounting for weaponskill delay. Additional losses (relative to the supposed theoretical gain) come from less effective DA/TA.

And yes, I'm accounting for the greater TP from jumps on the OAT. Str polearm averages 59 from Soul Jump, for example, while OAT averages 82.


Special Note: I will note, however, that I believe evidence has come up that my formulations for hits-per-round calculations when considering OAx effects may not be completely accurate. Once I've solidified those, I will see if there are any notable changes.

Also, if conserve tp is such an important factor and that 5 hit is seemingly not as big of an advantage, you should try putting this in your spread sheet:

Using sword strap for OAT polearm and do a 6 hit. That way, you can better use your conserve tp and should allow for a better comparison.

Like I said, there is literally no way OAT only WS 28% more.

I don't see any immediately obvious way to make the OAT a 6-hit and have it perform as well as it does with a 5-hit. Conserve TP is not a hugely important factor, but it does help close the gap slightly. It increases the str polearm total DPS by 2%, while increasing the OAT setup by 1.5%.

PS: You also need to account for extra TP making OAT polearm WS harder (even if just slightly). All of those conserve tp proc that didn't help OAT cut a hit from the hit build should result in 15+ extra TP on its WS as well as any TP overflow from OAT proc with 1 more hit to WS. I am not doubting your spread sheet since I know you from BG, but there has to be something that was not set correctly cuz I have parsed against STR polearm before and the result wasn't close.

Additional over-TP is accounted for. Doing a quick check using the same gear set and just changing the weapon, the str polearm averages 130 TP while the OAT averages 139 TP, using a 0.5 round over-TP scenario.

Conserve TP is calculated on a per-weaponskill-TP return value (eg: main hit plus two out of three additional hits plus a double attack or whatever), and on a per-Conserve TP proc value (calculated for a 1 TP return, a 2 TP return, a 3 TP return, etc, up to 20), and averaged out over all possible combinations, and number of hits and rounds needed to reach 100 TP for each combination.

[CrAZYVIC]

I love stardiver I unlocked it 5/5 and got my DRG lv 99 yesterday.

The sad thing is... i do more damage with my samurai -_- than my Drg using stardiver, this KINDA PISS ME A LOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

I have 8/8 Polearm Merits. But im Using SAM/WAR Vs DRG/SAM. I really fucking hate my Sam is beating my DRG on WS Damage because Overhelm... Another thing i hate is on Sam i can get 4 hit build "Easy". With increiblity high Zanshin rate on sam my WS rate is superior. My sam will out damage my DRG for a lot =/

Im gona start work this week on my STR Polearm. DRG is a wonderfull pretty job im gona use that for have Fun.

[Meldity]

I love stardiver I unlocked it 5/5 and got my DRG lv 99 yesterday.

The sad thing is... i do more damage with my samurai -_- than my Drg using stardiver

yeah, can't say I didn't see this coming. I feel the same way.

[Returner]

That makes sense. I know WS saturation is a pain to deal with and a big problem for any multi hit weapons. However, plz double check with the OAT formula as you said.

[CrAZYVIC]

This is my Method for calculate the max DPS of my jobs i hope is usefull for the people.

1.- First i calculate my damage in 1 hour using the two diferent sets i want compare.
2.- I Think a real scenario for use my two sets taking in consideration the following

a) The rivals im Facing
b) The buffs i'm will receive
c) The level of dificult and stress im gona have in a parse competition.

Correct me if im wrong.

In my maths the STR polearm leads for a short margin vs the OAT polearm. The diference is slighty.
I taked in consideration Meditate/Sekanoki/Jumps without Merit etc.

In 5 mins of active Fighting in Einherjar

STR polearm = 85 800 DPS Damage / Full Maths 86 023 - 5 Hit build
OAT polearm = 82 800 DPS Damage / Full maths 83 588 - 5 hit build

My margin of error is short. So you guys can take this as 70% optimal tests


If you play with Short Group max 6 people einherjar, dynamis etc. The STR Polearm is the optimal choice

a) You have time for hit the mobs more
b) You can solo some mobs and they will stay enough time alive
c) You will have less STress in the parse competition


if you play with big groups 12 + people the OAT is better

a) The enemies die Too quickly the stress is insane
b) Even if you are soloing mobs the people will notice and will go kill they too fast
C) You need quickly tp for have a chance vs anothers DDS

[noodles355]

I have 8/8 Polearm Merits. But im Using SAM/WAR Vs DRG/SAM.

And you're surprised you're doing more damage with Stardiver on Sam/War? One word: Berserk.

I don't see any immediately obvious way to make the OAT a 6-hit and have it perform as well as it does with a 5-hit.

Most effective way to make OAT a 6hit is probably to use a Sword Strap (which brings it to 492 Delay) and gear as if it were a normal lance.

STR polearm = 85 800 DPS Damage / Full Maths 86 023 - 5 Hit build
OAT polearm = 82 800 DPS Damage / Full maths 83 588 - 5 hit build

What gear are you using to get a 5-hit build with a STR Polearm? 480 delay 5hits are not reasonable.

[Ophannus]

And you're surprised you're doing more damage with Stardiver on Sam/War? Two words: Berserk. Overwhelm.

ftfy lol....

[CrAZYVIC]

What gear are you using to get a 5-hit build with a STR Polearm? 480 delay 5hits are not reasonable.

If the FFXI calculator dont lie for me this is the gear necesary for 5 hit build.

We need WS on this:

This set will return you 23.4 Tp after WS
This WS set is around + 100 STR pretty solid for Stardiver

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/243199

We need 19.15 tp on the TP set for 5 hit build.

This set give you 19.1 tp

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/243196

Im working on get this gear atm. Im kinda new with DRG. Probably players with more exp using the job can build better Sets!

The last words of year for stardiver. Fuck Sam, fuck overhelm and fuck berserk ^_^