Offhand for almace

[Demonofhunger]

Do you want me to change sub?
Do you want me to change spells?
Should I not use Plen. Embrace because of it's add effect? (I don't usually when soloing anyway)
How many monsters do you want me to fight with each sword setup?
Should I avoid debuffs?
Do you want me to use food?

The sub, set-up, and location is fine since it tends to be evenly favoring both potential results, but you have to set Blank Gaze and Winds of Promyvion. Crabs and crawlers both have +Defense moves that need to be immediately stripped for the parse to be meaningful and the slow effect from from Filamented Hold from the crawlers needs to be taken off yourself as fast as possible so that Haste can be reapplied.

Puks aren't even a potential source of mobs since so many of their TP moves will ruin the data.

In fact, you might also want to not use spell Haste at all. Filamented Hold will overwrite your haste and ruin the numbers if you don't put it back up fast enough.... even a few shadow recasts or a heal might bone it.

(I wonder if it might be easier to just throw out any data set where the mob uses Filamented Hold or puts up a Defense bonus TP move.... would that even be possible considering the amount of TP-feeding you'll be doing?)

That being said, please don't use Plen. Embrace. Inconsistently applying an Attack bonus seems like a perfect way to ruin the data.

I also expect that you'll record all spell use and enemy TP moves. I mean, we don't want one set of data to be skewed because you spent less time swinging and more time casting spells to cure damage or put shadows/blink up.

CdC at as close to 100 TP as you can.... I guess that's it.

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As to the other part of your post, I found it interesting.

In fact, I've been killing Orthrus a few times a week for the last few months with my lowman group. We only have one healer, so as BLU I don't melee on it at all. The main tank knocks it down in a rather slow fight so that the one healer can deal with the damage. Sometimes it doesn't work and I back-up tank until weakness fades. He's not even a NM whose moves I'd consider terribly bad except for the one at 50% that sometimes just drops anyone nearby.

As for the Odin Prime you were soloing... I wouldn't TP on him at all. It seems a lot safer to just use the tactic that people use on the NM sabotender that drops BLU body seals in Altepa (A). They don't melee at all, cast single hit damaging spells, and hit it with Reaving Wind so that it never uses 10K Needles. It's slow and boring, but it apparently works (I wouldn't know... I lowmanned the hydra in Grauberg for my seals and shadow tanked the crap out of him).

Still, what do you do about the Death effect? Just die, RR, wait to unweaken and then finish?

[Shadowsong]

Do everything for me

When a thread usually has a majority vs one person, it is usually that one person who has the burden of proof. It seems you want to change what is the general consensus. Instead of listing an obscene amount of restrictions onto a nice person who is trying to educate you, while also giving yourself a clean out if it doesn't go your way, makes you looks very very bad.

Please offer a parse of whatever it is you are trying to prove (I don't even know anymore). Otherwise, please either stop posting, since you don't really care about it anyway, or accept general knowledge/common sense.

[Nightfyre]

I don't mean to be impolite, but that seems to be a circular bit of theory.

If you care about TP feed for any reason, then you shouldn't be meleeing at all (or should be using a sub with Subtle Blow if you can afford some TP feed and you want to minimize it).

If you don't care about TP feed, then any actual total damage lost by offhanding an OA2-4 comes from slightly slower melee strikes that do a slightly smaller amount of total damage. (Only a quarter of DA and TA on melee strikes is wasted because DA and TA still work fine on WS, so the actual amounts of lost damage from melee strikes is very small.)

It's the logical endpoint of a presented scenario, not circular reasoning. If you're not meleeing at all then the discussion is entirely irrelevant. If you are, your choice of subjob will not affect which weapon is feeding more TP nor by how much so it is a point that should still be kept in mind.

The only relevant question is whether the small amount of melee strikes damage lost by using an OA2-4 in the offhand is offset by the extra damage from WSs and ODD from an Almace. Any other theoretical discussions are a distraction at best and misleading at worst.

Such thinking is pitifully limited at best and outright counterproductive at worst. Weapon choice should match the situation just like anything else. If you're only interested in DPS then your mention of situations where utility is a consideration was irrelevant.

I mean, saying that you get more hits/round than a MNK/WAR says nothing about Total Damage Over Time

I never said it did. You challenged my assertion that BLU has a high hits/round value, I defended it. At least try to keep basic points straight, discussions are much less tedious and repetitive that way.

I think the thing I find most fascinating about this argument is that people are making snap decisions after looking at just a few stats divorced from all the other considerations that go into increasing total damage, including other directly relevant stats.

That's quite a snap judgement you just made there, be careful where it takes you. For instance:

Chant Du Cygne can often do good to decent damage on NMs that we can only slightly damage with a normal melee strike or BLU spell, so maxxing out uses of CdC also maxxes out Total Damage.

This is not absolutely true. Tactical Mantle doesn't beat Atheling, Houyi's Gorget generally doesn't beat Fortitude Torque and definitely doesn't beat Rancor Collar (even Portus Collar is usually second-best), Zelus/Loki's isn't remotely close to Ocelomeh +1/Toci's despite having a lower average rounds/ws value and fractionally more haste.

[Tashan]

Blank Gaze and Winds of Promyvion

Don't know why I need to set WoP but ok. Conserve MP taken out and Blank Gaze + Whirl of Rage added.

In fact, you might also want to not use spell Haste at all. Filamented Hold will overwrite your haste and ruin the numbers if you don't put it back up fast enough.... even a few shadow recasts or a heal might bone it.

It's Sticky Thread, it doesn't overwrite. Filamented is from the... tarantulas. Can't remember what they're called. Diremites, that's it.

Keeping the DEF buffs dispelled is going to be a hassle, but sure.

I'm changing camp. The one in Boyahda is too link and aggro friendly. There are LV98 crabs in Toramarai Canal which I'm going to /check.

In fact, I've been killing Orthrus a few times a week for the last few months with my lowman group. We only have one healer, so as BLU I don't melee on it at all. The main tank knocks it down in a rather slow fight so that the one healer can deal with the damage. Sometimes it doesn't work and I back-up tank until weakness fades. He's not even a NM whose moves I'd consider terribly bad except for the one at 50% that sometimes just drops anyone nearby

If we were still level 90 I may still be doing this. There's no reason to at 99 though.

As for the Odin Prime you were soloing... I wouldn't TP on him at all. It seems a lot safer to just use the tactic that people use on the NM sabotender that drops BLU body seals in Altepa (A). They don't melee at all, cast single hit damaging spells, and hit it with Reaving Wind so that it never uses 10K Needles. It's slow and boring, but it apparently works (I wouldn't know... I lowmanned the hydra in Grauberg for my seals and shadow tanked the crap out of him).

Still, what do you do about the Death effect? Just die, RR, wait to unweaken and then finish?

There's no reason to not melee on him. It's kill or be killed. As for Zantesuken, I decided I didn't want to be hit by that so it doesn't hit me.

[Tashan]

Crabs in Toramarai are DC. Eh I don't know where to camp for this.

[Prothscar]

Parses are a flawed base for evidence. Uncontrollable variables, while largely inconsequential for this situation, are variables that will play on the accuracy of a test. No situation will favor OA2-4, however, evidence like I have provided, cold hard numbers and actual data and comparisons that make sense is the only truly accurate method to gauge effectiveness in this and most any circumstance unless judging efficiency based on certain monsters or notorious monsters.

[Tashan]

As a teacher, there comes a point in time where you have to admit that the approach is just not working. While it may seem like it makes common sense to teachers, there's no use hammering home about it to the students again and again because they won't listen. Especially once we get older.

A parse is wanted and I've agreed to do it. I'll aim for a large sample size (100 mobs each probably) to arguably squash any errors and form a reliable average.

Plus, it's been years since I've done anything for the community. I don't mind.

[Prothscar]

As a teacher, there comes a point in time where you have to admit that the approach is just not working. While it may seem like it makes common sense to teachers, there's no use hammering home about it to the students again and again because they won't listen. Especially once we get older.

A parse is wanted and I've agreed to do it. I'll aim for a large sample size (100 mobs each probably) to arguably squash any errors and form a reliable average.

Plus, it's been years since I've done anything for the community. I don't mind.

Unfortunately you won't be able to squash the errors, any monster above a monster in a starter zone will see the gap between weapons increased, however I do understand why you're doing it as his resolve to not listen to what anyone in the thread says is astounding, even when provided with absolute logical and numerical evidence.

I'd like to know this move of his that just 'drops anyone nearby' as I've eaten 3 Acheron Flame's in a row at 90 with only the brd mule dying and I was the sole healer.

Orthrus isn't dangerous at all and there's no reason to not kill it faster. If you're dying to his tp moves in one hit please reevaluate your dds and/or support.

This. I lol'd pretty hard when I read that, as I duo'd Orthrus BLU+WHM(BLM mule that was only used for procs) the day it came out for enough stones to furnish half a dozen +2 bodies. Sounds to me like we're encountering that problem again, his healer sucks horribly.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'd like to know this move of his that just 'drops anyone nearby' as I've eaten 3 Acheron Flame's in a row at 90 with only the brd mule dying and I was the sole healer.

Orthrus isn't dangerous at all and there's no reason to not kill it faster. If you're dying to his tp moves in one hit please reevaluate your dds and/or support.

[Tashan]

Gone back to Boyahda. Going to do crawlers and hope for no links.

Taking off Eva Bonus for Conserve MP to reduce downtime, and Wind Breath for stat bonus'.