[DEV1064] Tachi: Shoha

[Quetzacoatl]

Okay, how about this: what if, in order to balance this new merit WS that isn't really any stronger than WAR's merit WS, SAM had to contend with it only making a level 2 skillchain with Konzen-Ittai, thereby severely compromising its single strongest JA and actually being weaker with K-I than Gekko, which makes Darkness?

Oh wait, Shoha already does that!

Kasha >> Shoha >> Fudo double-Light self-skillchain.

The new numbers will still be higher than Shoha and Fudo.

Qilin will still die faster than it takes to cap lights on him.

The only thing hurting after the WAR nerf will be Atoreis' self esteem.

I thought Fudo was fair for SAM, really. :S

[Taint2]

Duely noted



Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?

DO NOT IGNORE ME

SHOHA DOES NOT DO THIS

[newmonkey]

Why are certain mongs comparing shohas from abyssea gdi abyssea is over, at least compare ws outside.

[Tamoa]

Why are certain mongs comparing shohas from abyssea gdi abyssea is over, at least compare ws outside.

This.

While it was extremely fun seeing big ws numbers as sam in abyssea, it really doesn't mean much.

[scaevola]

For comparison's sake, I haven't used my 3/5 Shoha outside of Abyssea on anything meaningful yet (closest were Gustav worms/turtles to get stones for friends' LB), but on those mobs, I was doing about 1100 to the turtles and 1800 to the worms. I don't have twilight mail or helm.

On DNC I did about 800 and 1100 to the same mobs (respectively) with Dancing Edge. Shoha is still waaaaay behind anything that we look at and say "holy shit that's pretty overpowered". It's only overpowered relative to content designed with the expectation that we should.....still be using shit like Dancing Edge.

[IronPandemonium]

Whatever man, believe what you like. I'm all for boosting other jobs, but the way I see things, SAM really should really be brought to WAR's level. After the Ukko nerf, that balance has been upset.

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

[Theytak]

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

I've been talking about shoha because it's a complete outlier in the new ws they added and goes completely against their obvious intention of the new ws being side grades. I've done no "crying". I enjoy the delicious tears of people who piss and moan about random crap just as much as you do.

Besides, consider this: your shock-jockey posting style of "You're a big @^&%ing baby, stop crying" to get a rise out of people isn't that much different from me saying "nerf shoha, it's OP" to watch the sams rush in rage all over "the idiots who don't know how bad sam has it". Seriously, the only reason I'm replying to you is because I love to feed trolls.

[Motenten]

7k Shoha is possible with two triple attack procs. Average with 2 TAs is about 6k, and with a generally high pDif it can hit 7k. The only practical means of getting that kind of proc is with Apoc atma (and per the person who did it, also A&O atma) inside Abyssea. But we're not talking inside Abyssea, we want outside (though there are certainly still considerations for drk's non-crit weaponskills inside Abyssea to compare with the other jobs).

Outside Abyssea you're looking at maybe 1 DA at best most of the time (~15%-20%?), with a rare chance at 2 DA. Given exactly the same setup as the theoretical 7k Abyssea weaponskill, that's about a 2k average with no DA, a 2.5k average with one DA, 3.1k with two DAs. Overall average is slightly over 2k. Of course then you add Overwhelm and it can increase to a 2.4k average.

For Ukko war vs same target, it's about 2.1k without Blood Rage, 2.7k with Blood Rage (using current version of Blood Rage). Add in Restraint and average increases to 2.5k to 3.2k (without/with BR). With war's DA rate, there's a much higher likelihood of a couple DAs proccing, giving you more noticeable spikes.


Overall DPS for those two was about 215 for sam and 183 for war (after averaging out durations for Berserk/Blood Rage/Restraint). Doesn't count extra skillchain damage that sam can easily pick up.


Long term average, mnk actually has a higher DPS than either of those two (228) even though it has a lower weaponskill average. However, many NM fights nowadays are more heavily skewed towards weaponskill damage due to Save TP, wings, and meditating outside melee range. If a war or sam can sekka two weaponskills right off the bat, that can give them enough of a lead that the mnk would never catch up before the mob is dead.

Note: I haven't implemented Save TP in all spreadsheets yet, so numbers don't account for that.


On atma: If using a TP Bonus Keito, best atma combo with Shoha for overall DPS is Apoc, VV, Griffon Claw. RR is pretty far behind. If using a Masamune and trying to mix in ODD, RR catches up, but seems more of a hassle than it's worth. Even with straight-up Fudo, RR is more of a sidegrade.

[Quetzacoatl]

I don't think this WS (Shoha) needs a 2x ATK buff and I don't think it has one that high, but it does have some of an attack bonus.

That's what I mentioned in the Original Post- that the attack bonus should be reduced to a level where most DDs are able to compete at. I said nothing about nerfing STR; the STR Atma bit was a completely different argument in context of Masamune builds for Abyssea. And Abyssea is still pretty relevant to the game.

Guess what also gets an attack bonus? Most of the other merited WSes for jobs that need them due to having lower damage rating weapons. Holy crap, logic. Even more logic: they get negative or no bonus at 100tp and get positive bonuses a little higher than 100tp. I can also name a WS I never use at 100tp outside abyssea, I wait for 120, say hello to Blade: Hi.

BALANCEEEEEEEEE

Why the hell did they nerf Realmrazer and Ruinator then?! D:

Also: Merit some of the other 2 hand weaponskills to cap, properly gear them, and see what kind of damage you get out of them. Resolution is also an STR mod, and hits 5 times, hint hint.

I did that on the test server, Reso looks really good <3

[Quetzacoatl]

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

I've been talking about shoha because it's a complete outlier in the new ws they added and goes completely against their obvious intention of the new ws being side grades. I've done no "crying". I enjoy the delicious tears of people who piss and moan about random crap just as much as you do.

Besides, consider this: your shock-jockey posting style of "You're a big @^&%ing baby, stop crying" to get a rise out of people isn't that much different from me saying "nerf shoha, it's OP" to watch the sams rush in rage all over "the idiots who don't know how bad sam has it". Seriously, the only reason I'm replying to you is because I love to feed trolls.

Quoted for truth.

Even if I advocated boosting other Weapon Skills to make them just as good as Ukko's/Smite, wouldn't that idea get rejected as well anyway in the case of the game being "too easy?" Not to mention it would get shot down by SE anyway, so I'd like to see what you can offer better than I can.

Man up, IronPandemonium.