Stop Player Bashing

[GlobalVariable]

Wait, what.... there is such a beautiful feature?

Yup. Click name, click view profile, click ignore user.

[Vinc]

Arcon the problem you and a lot of others fail to see is that you're not playing this game alone. If you are, then you should make this clear in every post that your opinion is subject to that. People ask others to gear properly for party situations - whether linkshell or pickup - because how anyone gears affects everyone in a party situation. To put it simply, wear what you want in the street, but when you go to church try to dress appropriately? If that makes sense.

Also, your calls for being nice are completely out of line. I am actually offended by you suggesting that I was being rude in my post, and I wish a moderator would step up and speak to you about that. I posted something that I found funny, and you are making me feel bad by implying that I was being mean. That's not fair.

[SNK]

I don't know many people who want to see others do better with anything in life if they don't like that person. You must be special if you honestly feel that way.

Actually I'm the same way as well. Just because I think you're being very thickheaded doesn't mean I don't want to see you to do better. I think it was you in another thread but the whole thing about not wanting a player to gearswap made me really raise an eyebrow.

Gearswaps for every job is a must if you want to do it right? I deal with people who gearswap a ton as a WHM and as an RDM no problems handling them even when I cast spells manually. You just have to pay attention and be on the ball.

[Arcon]

Yup. Click name, click view profile, click ignore user.

I love you.

Arcon the problem you and a lot of others fail to see is that you're not playing this game alone. If you are, then you should make this clear in every post that your opinion is subject to that. People ask others to gear properly for party situations - whether linkshell or pickup - because how anyone gears affects everyone in a party situation. To put it simply, wear what you want in the street, but when you go to church try to dress appropriately? If that makes sense.

That's true, that's why everyone should try to contribute and look out for others. This depends on your personal tolerance as well though, if someone's play style is making him a really terrible team player, then you should just replace them. Then they simply aren't fir for team play. However, if his personal choices just make him an average player instead of a good or great one, does it really matter that much? I guess it's a problem of drawing the line, if your survival was at stake because of someone elses play style, believe me, I know how annoying that is. But if it drops your EXP average from 25k/h to 23k/h, 'cause a WAR wants to use a polearm on colibris but is ill-equipped for that, is that worth getting annoyed over? Guess that depends on the player as well, personally I wouldn't care.

I love to try stupid things on my character, just for the sake of trying something new, even if I know it's worse than my current playstyle. But whenever it comes to party situations or any kind of collaborative effort, I play to the best of my abilities. I think everyone should try that, however I don't blame them if they don't. Everyone has a right to play whatever way they want. If it's really that much of a bother, they will realize that people won't want to team up with them anymore. And then it's up to them whether they feel the need to change around others or get used to playing solo most of the time.

Also, your calls for being nice are completely out of line. I am actually offended by you suggesting that I was being rude in my post, and I wish a moderator would step up and speak to you about that. I posted something that I found funny, and you are making me feel bad by implying that I was being mean. That's not fair.

While you're probably only being half-serious about this, I'll still give you a serious reply, because that's something I wanted to mention sooner anyway.

People often don't intend to be rude or offensive, but others interpret it that way regardless. Sometimes your intentions and other people's perceptions differ. Excerpt from the forum rules:

- Since you cannot see each other on the forum, your words may be taken the wrong way or may have a negative emotional affect on others. Please try to maintain a polite manner and review your entry before you post.

People often take things personally when they shouldn't. While this certainly isn't someone's fault for posting (and it's happened in here too), they should still try to put themselves in the reader's shoes and try to see what it may look like to them.

You may have only mentioned something funny, someone else may have taken it as you belittling their opinion or implying that they're stupid because you said "fact = opinion", which they didn't actually say, or imply, but you inferred from their statement. So to them it seemed aggressive and rude. You could brush that off by saying "your fault for taking it the wrong way", but as I said (and as it says in the rules) calm and civilized conversation requires both/all parties to think about others' feelings before posting.

[Greatguardian]

I don't think any sort of moderator action is necessary for pretty much every post you quoted. There is blatant cursing and berating, and then there is "No. You're wrong. TP'ing in CHR gear is bad. Refusing to learn makes you bad." They are worlds apart. This game is rated for players age 13 and over, which means we are given cause to assume that no one posting here is still a child. There is no reason for an adult or young adult to equate being told "You are gearing incorrectly, you are wrong" with berating and abuse. Telling someone that the number 7 is larger than the number 3, even though they vehemently believe the number 3 is a significantly larger number, is not rude. It may be their "Opinion" that the number 3 is much larger than the number 7, but they are wrong.

There is a difference between stating a fact and rubbing it in someone's face, and I would greatly appreciate it if people did not demean the value of the words "Rude" and "Bashing" by applying it to anyone who posts with half an ounce of force. All it does is make it more difficult to identify legitimate complaints.

With that said, there is very little way to actually enforce the rules regarding the spread of misinformation. For the most part, players who post about "Haste being useless" generally actually believe it for some reason. It is difficult, from a moderation standpoint, to fault someone for something they actually do believe is true information. Secondly, the word "Opinion" is thrown around so much I don't even know where to start. There are legitimate opinions, such as "Some Corsairs prefer to Shoot for TP, while others prefer to Melee". Then there are lies or facts that people claim are "Opinions" in order to hide behind the word, such as "Sidewinder does more damage than Split Shot" or "STR is better to TP in on Drk than Haste." Someone could claim that "Sidewinder doing more damage than Split Shot is just your opinion". That would not make it true. It is still a fact. Someone could also claim that "STR is better than Haste for DRK to TP in is my opinion." That would not make it true. Haste is still better than STR for DRK to TP in.

No amount of varied opinions can make the number 3 greater than the number 7. Trying to calmly reason with people who utilize such nonsense is bound to fray anyone's nerves, and will just cause post quality to degrade.

If you want an ideal solution, require people to post some sort of proof of their claims before challenging the tried and true norms. You may like your Shinsoku more than a Masamune, but unless you can show in some empirically acceptable fashion that it's a better weapon, then it is a worse weapon and you will just have to accept that. I do not care if you run around in 0% Haste and a Heart Snatcher. But don't try to pass it off as good, it's not. Live with it, change it, or prove that it's better. There are no other options.

Edit: Harsher than intended maybe, but the point stands. It's incredibly difficult to hold a civil discussion in the presence of nonsense. A PM function would certainly help get rid of the clutter of 10 people and 5 trolls answering the same question at once.

[Naturebeckles]

Actually I'm the same way as well. Just because I think you're being very thickheaded doesn't mean I don't want to see you to do better. I think it was you in another thread but the whole thing about not wanting a player to gearswap made me really raise an eyebrow.

Gearswaps for every job is a must if you want to do it right? I deal with people who gearswap a ton as a WHM and as an RDM no problems handling them even when I cast spells manually. You just have to pay attention and be on the ball.

My husband gear swaps a ton on his mage jobs, so I know what you're saying. I just try not to do it on my DD jobs and I try to keep my gear balanced. I'm no longer going to argue the gear swap thing with people who are going to call me a bad player and throw other insults at me for being stupid. I'm just about done with these forums. The only reason I still read them right now is for Frost, Great Guardian, Xilk and others who revive human decency for me.

[Juri_Licious]

People should just learn that you can't change people.

You can only change yourself.

[Naturebeckles]

All of this in a thread that was supposed to encourage people to be nice and respectful to others. Something that everyone agreed upon when signing up, something that's mentioned loud and clear (and twice) in the General Forum Rules and shouldn't even have to be discuss. Something that actually can't be discussed, yet people are still going on about it.

I would seriously like some moderator intervention sometimes, some of the comments people have made (both in this and countless other threads) clearly violate the rule about being respectful to others and I don't see a reason why this should be tolerated. And no, I don't mean everyone whom I've quoted above, although none of these posts were nice, but some of them were downright insulting. And that should not stand in this official forum.



Clearly. However, whatever your intentions for posting here are, it is still a rule that makes no exceptions.



There is no doing it wrong in this regard. While there might be a way to deal more damage with the amount of money you have (both in cash and potential), that is not what's right or wrong. People play for different reasons, I once geared just to see how many attacks I could do in the least amount of time. On PLD. That was neither efficient nor effective and I was very well aware of that fact. However it was what I wanted to try. When I asked people what the lowest delay weapons were a PLD could use people immediately assumed it was "wrong" and started telling me what I should use instead. People always make assumptions about a person's intentions and values and most commonly identify them with their own. But that's not respecting my own decisions, I didn't impose them on anyone, I didn't assume they were "right". So who are you to tell me it's wrong how I wanna play?

I know you meant wrong in the sense of getting most out of your job for the potential money you have, but as I said, that's not what everyone cares about. What if someone just wants to feel like posessing something extraordinary, something that not many others have? Judging from what I read from you so far I'm pretty sure you'd immediately consider them needy and irrational. But what if they're just after achievements? Having decent overall gear or having one exceptional piece of gear and leave the rest out, and slowly build it up to meet their potential. What's wrong with that if that's how people wanna play?

And even if it was true, if they were really needy and irrational, pointing it out would belittle their feelings. Unless they go around and start telling everyone how great of a melee they are with their Kraken Club and 117 club skill, no one should look down on them for playing how they do.

You're making a general assumption, saying if people don't sell it they're wrong. That's not just false but also extremely unhelpful. I don't know why people would even say that.



Whether it's being a fact or you pointing out it's a fact is very different. Naturebeckles never once assumed she was a great or even good player, she stated a few things about her gear and that she didn't know about <stal>. Even if the things she posted weren't satisfactory to some people, pointing out she is a bad player (which you really can't tell from what she has said) without any motivation (other than them disagreeing with you) is bashing. It is disrespectful and belittling of their abilities.

I really believe a moderator needs to step up and remind people of being nice occasionally, and intervene when it gets too far (which has already happened imo). This forum is already starting to go down the BG path, a gathering place for elitists who care about nothing but being right, ironically even when they're wrong. And that's not a place I'd like to see the official forums end up in.



Wait, what.... there is such a beautiful feature?

Arcon.... I LOVE YOU.

[hadeed]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

nice talk ,equipment bash , play style bash all this should stop from people, the game designed not for one style. and the "lol JOB" thing is really the worst thing in FF11 because of it people stopped playing certain jobs even because people don't invite it to their events or just because of personal taste.

[Arcon]

There is a difference between stating a fact and rubbing it in someone's face, and I would greatly appreciate it if people did not demean the value of the words "Rude" and "Bashing" by applying it to anyone who posts with half an ounce of force. All it does is make it more difficult to identify legitimate complaints.

While I agree with most of what you said and having moderated forums in the past I know it's not easy to judge what should and shouldn't be removed or penalized. However, there have been several actually rude comments on here as well as bashing. There are arguably worse things to do, but that doesn't make them better. Anything you say without disregard for another person's feelings, often even knowing they'll be upset by it, is rude. Being rude alone isn't that bad, I never claimed that, still it's not something I like to see on here. Bashing means continuously and deliberately being rude, hurtful, insulting or offensive to someone, which has also happened in this thread and several others.

Regardless of people's beliefs, making people feel stupid for believing what they do isn't what should be going on here. I know that some things are fact, and that you can't and shouldn't argue with it, but that's not what I'm referring to. If someone says they believe in something and will do it, then that's their own decision. And you can point out that it's wrong, not effective or whatever, and provide arguments for that. Now, that person has two ways to react, either they accept that other people think differently (regardless of what is true or not) and leave it at that, or they keep insisting on their own opinion, disregarding arguments and proofs against it. If a person does the latter, it's them who have crossed the line. I still wouldn't be rude to them, but I don't particularly care if others are, 'cause they're asking for an argument. I think such threads should simply be closed by a moderator because they're bound to escalate.

My problem lies with people being rude to someone even if they don't reply at all. Calling them noobs and stupid, without them ever saying anything again, just for mentioning what they believe, without even trying to spread that to others. And that has happened a lot, in almost every job specific forum I checked and plenty in here too. There's no excuse for that, people need to respect others, regardless of their beliefs.