Stop Player Bashing

[Arcon]

Yup. Click name, click view profile, click ignore user.

I love you.

Arcon the problem you and a lot of others fail to see is that you're not playing this game alone. If you are, then you should make this clear in every post that your opinion is subject to that. People ask others to gear properly for party situations - whether linkshell or pickup - because how anyone gears affects everyone in a party situation. To put it simply, wear what you want in the street, but when you go to church try to dress appropriately? If that makes sense.

That's true, that's why everyone should try to contribute and look out for others. This depends on your personal tolerance as well though, if someone's play style is making him a really terrible team player, then you should just replace them. Then they simply aren't fir for team play. However, if his personal choices just make him an average player instead of a good or great one, does it really matter that much? I guess it's a problem of drawing the line, if your survival was at stake because of someone elses play style, believe me, I know how annoying that is. But if it drops your EXP average from 25k/h to 23k/h, 'cause a WAR wants to use a polearm on colibris but is ill-equipped for that, is that worth getting annoyed over? Guess that depends on the player as well, personally I wouldn't care.

I love to try stupid things on my character, just for the sake of trying something new, even if I know it's worse than my current playstyle. But whenever it comes to party situations or any kind of collaborative effort, I play to the best of my abilities. I think everyone should try that, however I don't blame them if they don't. Everyone has a right to play whatever way they want. If it's really that much of a bother, they will realize that people won't want to team up with them anymore. And then it's up to them whether they feel the need to change around others or get used to playing solo most of the time.

Also, your calls for being nice are completely out of line. I am actually offended by you suggesting that I was being rude in my post, and I wish a moderator would step up and speak to you about that. I posted something that I found funny, and you are making me feel bad by implying that I was being mean. That's not fair.

While you're probably only being half-serious about this, I'll still give you a serious reply, because that's something I wanted to mention sooner anyway.

People often don't intend to be rude or offensive, but others interpret it that way regardless. Sometimes your intentions and other people's perceptions differ. Excerpt from the forum rules:

- Since you cannot see each other on the forum, your words may be taken the wrong way or may have a negative emotional affect on others. Please try to maintain a polite manner and review your entry before you post.

People often take things personally when they shouldn't. While this certainly isn't someone's fault for posting (and it's happened in here too), they should still try to put themselves in the reader's shoes and try to see what it may look like to them.

You may have only mentioned something funny, someone else may have taken it as you belittling their opinion or implying that they're stupid because you said "fact = opinion", which they didn't actually say, or imply, but you inferred from their statement. So to them it seemed aggressive and rude. You could brush that off by saying "your fault for taking it the wrong way", but as I said (and as it says in the rules) calm and civilized conversation requires both/all parties to think about others' feelings before posting.

[HFX7686]

People often don't intend to be rude or offensive, but others interpret it that way regardless. Sometimes your intentions and other people's perceptions differ. Excerpt from the forum rules:

- Since you cannot see each other on the forum, your words may be taken the wrong way or may have a negative emotional affect on others. Please try to maintain a polite manner and review your entry before you post.

People often take things personally when they shouldn't. While this certainly isn't someone's fault for posting (and it's happened in here too), they should still try to put themselves in the reader's shoes and try to see what it may look like to them.

I think that the onus falls mostly on the reader rather than the poster, especially when considering the posts in this thread and the ones in the haste thread. For the most part every reply to Naturebeckles near the beginning of the thread were very polite and just trying to explain why what she was saying was wrong. It was actually her who started the bashing, name-calling, and insulting.

Really, readers have to stop being so darned sensitive to being corrected.

I think that this is something that has become part of our society today. It has become impolite and rude to correct someone, even if they are incorrect.

[Greatguardian]

I don't think any sort of moderator action is necessary for pretty much every post you quoted. There is blatant cursing and berating, and then there is "No. You're wrong. TP'ing in CHR gear is bad. Refusing to learn makes you bad." They are worlds apart. This game is rated for players age 13 and over, which means we are given cause to assume that no one posting here is still a child. There is no reason for an adult or young adult to equate being told "You are gearing incorrectly, you are wrong" with berating and abuse. Telling someone that the number 7 is larger than the number 3, even though they vehemently believe the number 3 is a significantly larger number, is not rude. It may be their "Opinion" that the number 3 is much larger than the number 7, but they are wrong.

There is a difference between stating a fact and rubbing it in someone's face, and I would greatly appreciate it if people did not demean the value of the words "Rude" and "Bashing" by applying it to anyone who posts with half an ounce of force. All it does is make it more difficult to identify legitimate complaints.

With that said, there is very little way to actually enforce the rules regarding the spread of misinformation. For the most part, players who post about "Haste being useless" generally actually believe it for some reason. It is difficult, from a moderation standpoint, to fault someone for something they actually do believe is true information. Secondly, the word "Opinion" is thrown around so much I don't even know where to start. There are legitimate opinions, such as "Some Corsairs prefer to Shoot for TP, while others prefer to Melee". Then there are lies or facts that people claim are "Opinions" in order to hide behind the word, such as "Sidewinder does more damage than Split Shot" or "STR is better to TP in on Drk than Haste." Someone could claim that "Sidewinder doing more damage than Split Shot is just your opinion". That would not make it true. It is still a fact. Someone could also claim that "STR is better than Haste for DRK to TP in is my opinion." That would not make it true. Haste is still better than STR for DRK to TP in.

No amount of varied opinions can make the number 3 greater than the number 7. Trying to calmly reason with people who utilize such nonsense is bound to fray anyone's nerves, and will just cause post quality to degrade.

If you want an ideal solution, require people to post some sort of proof of their claims before challenging the tried and true norms. You may like your Shinsoku more than a Masamune, but unless you can show in some empirically acceptable fashion that it's a better weapon, then it is a worse weapon and you will just have to accept that. I do not care if you run around in 0% Haste and a Heart Snatcher. But don't try to pass it off as good, it's not. Live with it, change it, or prove that it's better. There are no other options.

Edit: Harsher than intended maybe, but the point stands. It's incredibly difficult to hold a civil discussion in the presence of nonsense. A PM function would certainly help get rid of the clutter of 10 people and 5 trolls answering the same question at once.

[Arcon]

There is a difference between stating a fact and rubbing it in someone's face, and I would greatly appreciate it if people did not demean the value of the words "Rude" and "Bashing" by applying it to anyone who posts with half an ounce of force. All it does is make it more difficult to identify legitimate complaints.

While I agree with most of what you said and having moderated forums in the past I know it's not easy to judge what should and shouldn't be removed or penalized. However, there have been several actually rude comments on here as well as bashing. There are arguably worse things to do, but that doesn't make them better. Anything you say without disregard for another person's feelings, often even knowing they'll be upset by it, is rude. Being rude alone isn't that bad, I never claimed that, still it's not something I like to see on here. Bashing means continuously and deliberately being rude, hurtful, insulting or offensive to someone, which has also happened in this thread and several others.

Regardless of people's beliefs, making people feel stupid for believing what they do isn't what should be going on here. I know that some things are fact, and that you can't and shouldn't argue with it, but that's not what I'm referring to. If someone says they believe in something and will do it, then that's their own decision. And you can point out that it's wrong, not effective or whatever, and provide arguments for that. Now, that person has two ways to react, either they accept that other people think differently (regardless of what is true or not) and leave it at that, or they keep insisting on their own opinion, disregarding arguments and proofs against it. If a person does the latter, it's them who have crossed the line. I still wouldn't be rude to them, but I don't particularly care if others are, 'cause they're asking for an argument. I think such threads should simply be closed by a moderator because they're bound to escalate.

My problem lies with people being rude to someone even if they don't reply at all. Calling them noobs and stupid, without them ever saying anything again, just for mentioning what they believe, without even trying to spread that to others. And that has happened a lot, in almost every job specific forum I checked and plenty in here too. There's no excuse for that, people need to respect others, regardless of their beliefs.

[Greatguardian]

My problem lies with people being rude to someone even if they don't reply at all. Calling them noobs and stupid, without them ever saying anything again, just for mentioning what they believe, without even trying to spread that to others. And that has happened a lot, in almost every job specific forum I checked and plenty in here too. There's no excuse for that, people need to respect others, regardless of their beliefs.

Having stayed out of most of the job specific forums aside from Monk, I've probably missed most of this. I tend to stick around General Discussion, where for the most part I don't see players getting too disgruntled unless they're on page 2-3 of the same person insisting that "X > Y" when it's easily shown that Y > X.

If a player were to post for the first time in a thread saying something like "I like Askar head", and then not press the issue, I do agree that it would be too harsh to jump on them for it. For the most part, that I've seen, such exclamations are typically answered with something like "Just a heads up, Turban is a lot better than Askar head for damage output." If people want to know, they know. If they don't, they can ignore it and either talk about something else or go to another thread. Starting pointless arguments over little things like that just make it free game, and I suppose I was under the impression a fair amount of people were complaining about being "bashed on" in the middle of such things. Things like Fondle's posts in the Haste thread comparing that mess to psychological abuse just diminish my respect for the legitimacy of many of these complaints.

[Juri_Licious]

People should just learn that you can't change people.

You can only change yourself.

[Amerlyn]

You can only change yourself.

While I agree with this, I would still like to add to it. Its true only person can choose to change themselves. But that doesn't mean the people around them, what they do, what they say, doesn't effect that change.

I thought about this on my 30 min drive I just had. I agree people shouldn't pass out false information. I agree they should be corrected if they do not know any better. But what I do not agree with is forcing it on them. Belittling a person is not going to to force them to change they're mind. It only serves to vent your own frustration for not being able to change they're point of view. If you really don't agree with what a person says, then challenge them to prove it.. politely. If they are passing out false information that they deem true (no matter what facts you place in front of them), and refuse to believe you, the most you can accomplish to make certain that misinformation doesn't continue to spread (b/c it will no matter how upset you get with them), then just make sure you make a note of it on they're thread. Example: I don't believe this thread to be entirely accurate or true, this is what I believe, here are the facts to prove it. --- B/c really in the end the person who is reading the thread and the comments is gonna be the one to decide which to believe, and no matter how much you complain or how much you scream that is gonna do nothing to change that fact. In the end all you can do is state your opinion/ the facts on this forum, it is up the the reader to decide to follow them or not.

Also from an earlier posting and I agree with her/him. In my opinion people will respond positively if you keep your post polite than getting riled up and belittling and insulting them, all you do is fuel the flames. So just respond politely, argue as politely as possible and if they still refuse to listen then challenge them. If they believe this gear is better, then challenge to try your gear set up. If they still refuse to believe... oh well you tried, any further arguments and insults is pointless, just leave it alone. And if someone happens to read the posting I guarantee you if they read your posts and see u being polite on the subject and the other person becoming hostile, they are more likely to agree with you. On the other hand if your the person being insulting and getting worked up, they dismiss what you have to say and believe what the user has posted. Again this comes down to the simple fact, that you cannot force your opinion (even back by facts) onto people, you can only put out there and let them decide what to believe. So don't get worked up, just move on.

On the note of bashing. Bashing is intentionally insulting or being cruel to another player. You can't help it at times. You will slip up, everyone does. But if you do happen to slip and unintentionally bash someone and they become offended, then apologize to them. Its not going to make you the lesser person because you apologized. Its better to apologize than to fuel a fire you unintentionally set. If you set it intentionally then there is the problem. And I'm sure players will notice and eventually the moderators will too. I'm also certain that if u set it intentionally you probably are going to back it up with "I don't care", if thats the case, then just ignore my posts and move on.

Also, this thread wasn't started to give reasons to break the rules. This was started to make people aware of ways to avoid bashing another player and possibly solve an issue. The rule cannot be discussed, it is a permanent feature of this forum. You either choose to follow it, or don't (in which case you will eventually face the consequences).

I'm not saying I am perfect either. Not saying I am not quilty of slipping up and bashing a player. I am just saying we should strive to avoid this. A perfect example is me and GlobalVariable last night. I was tired, he responded to one of my posts and I took offense over nothing and walked a thin line of bashing him when I replied. After sleeping it off I realized what I had done and apologized to him and reinterated myself to try and explain my reasoning. In the end I also challenged him and others to improve on an idea. Because honestly I felt if they were going to disagree b/c they didn't like one feature of an idea, they should think of a better way to improve on the feature. Don't just disagree with an idea b/c you don't like one part of the suggestion, add to the suggestion. Because all you are saying is "I agree with the idea, but b/c I don't like this part i'm gonna disagree on the entire thing". Improve on it. That was my challenge.

Thats it for me now. I'm off topic. The Topic is "Stop Bashing Players" the idea behind it, is not ways to get away with it (as it seems to me thats what people are trying to argue is a reason to bash players, there is no reason, never). Its ways to avoid it, and if you find u have bashed a player to at least learn to apologize for it.

[hadeed]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

nice talk ,equipment bash , play style bash all this should stop from people, the game designed not for one style. and the "lol JOB" thing is really the worst thing in FF11 because of it people stopped playing certain jobs even because people don't invite it to their events or just because of personal taste.

[Amerlyn]

Wow... my thread really went off topic for a long time.

[Greatguardian]

The difference between someone wearing 25% Slow and 0% Haste is the same as the difference between someone wearing 0% Haste and 25% Haste, which was his reasoning and is absolutely correct. It's a matter of opportunity cost. It would be like saying "Wearing Morgana's Choker and Meridian ring at the same time is okay in a +HP build because the +HP on the ring cancels out the -HP on the neck." No, it doesn't. You still have 40 less HP than you would have had without the choker. It doesn't matter whether or not your HP is less than your base max HP, it is still less than your maximum max HP.

Edit: So this doesn't start another 20-page crap fest, Nature advocated a *Gearing* style which is wrong. Her actual playstyle hasn't come into play, which I think is the reason she's being so defensive. It's a hop, skip, and a jump for most people to go from "Insisting on gearing incorrectly" > "Not wanting to improve" > "Being a bad player for not wanting to get better", but I don't think that line of thought is being followed by some and it is causing some confusion.