Relic Weapon Skills at Level 99

[Greatguardian]

Why would someone care if the weaponskill on the weapon they spent 130mil worth of currency on is garbage when they can just use Raging Rush like every other joker with an AH axe? Did you really just ask that?

If using Raging Rush with an extremely high damage weapon with +40 accuracy (Attack in 1-handers case, which is a lot better most of the time) keeps up with Ukko's Fury with a lower damage weapon, what's the big deal?

Bravura would also be significantly more powerful during Mighty Strikes, where they are able to spam Upheaval and keep their ODD on while Ukon is forced to use Ukko's Fury occasionally if they want their ODD aftermath.

Relics offer increased versatility. Their particular WS doesn't need to be their best DD WS because they aren't locked to their Relic WS in order to deal damage the way Emps are.

[wish12oz]

Relics offer increased versatility. Their particular WS doesn't need to be their best DD WS because they aren't locked to their Relic WS in order to deal damage the way Emps are.

This is the correct answer.

First off nobody is crying, you need learn to read my OP and every other post I made. I never said relic weapon skills need to be the best. I said they need to be more on par with the counterparts. You live in a fantasy world if you think they are. Do you own a relic by chance? As stated in my OP, I'm looking for people WITH relics to reply, not people chiming in because they don't want their Emp weapons to be overshadowed at 99.

I could care less what happens to any weapons on the way to or at 99, I will bother to get the best one if it's worth the effort and time required whenever it changes. Relics at 75 were not worth it for anything I played, so I didn't bother. And as other people said, it's better to have people who know what they're talking about reply, even if they don't have a certain item.

[Kitkat]

So the whole source of the argument is based on one jobs ability to do intense damage with a WS that isn't relic or emp during 2hour? Newer content, since this is where everyone wants to base everything anyway, you use 2hour do all your awesome damage then what? Tell everyone to wait while you go to abyssea and reset 2hour so you can do it again? What about other jobs who don't have a 2hour that turns everything into crit damage? What about others who won't unlock the WS on that job to instead boost the performance of other non-emp/relic jobs.

I see your point, but I fail to see how you can use this as a blanket effect to explain away all the WS when the same situation doesn't apply to every job or ws.

[newmonkey]

You've not read my last few posts in this topic well at all, have you? I've made my points clear enough that some weapons need buffing, some don't. The only rebuttals I've seen are "lol, you're wrong, my relic is shit" with nothing but a "trust me, I have a relic!" as a supporting argument.

I've already said this enough; WS to WS comparisons and nothing else are a hugely flawed, biased comparison between both sets of weapons. As an example, you're telling me, with a straight face, that a Bravura WAR pulling out 3-5k Metatron Torments with capped Haste, full PDT and a 10-20% Occassionally 2.5x damage proc isn't completely friggin' broken given the amount of time it takes to make one compared to an Ukon?

Why does anyone even care about Relic WS strength if you have an alternative that puts out better damage anyway?

Hi just wanted to point out a few things bravura is miles behind ukon is dps let's start with a few things firstly it only has odd not 2.5. Metatron torment does around 1.5k it does not get anywere close to 3-5k ws i wish it did but no not even close. Ukon users can reach 26 - pdt taken whilst spamming ukkos fury with capped haste, wearing the following:

Mekita toshugia +1 body -8
Twilight torque neck -5
Metallion mantle back - 4
Chersos helm -4

That above is - 21 pdt with capped haste spamming ukkos.

Bravua needs a huge dps boost to even begin to catch upto ukonvsara.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's okay, with Bravura you cap haste/PDT/MDT and keep 6 hit, evasion/defense down the enemy occasionally, so you deal less damage (your allies will deal more) and take less damage than with Ukon!

[Greatguardian]

So the whole source of the argument is based on one jobs ability to do intense damage with a WS that isn't relic or emp during 2hour? Newer content, since this is where everyone wants to base everything anyway, you use 2hour do all your awesome damage then what? Tell everyone to wait while you go to abyssea and reset 2hour so you can do it again? What about other jobs who don't have a 2hour that turns everything into crit damage? What about others who won't unlock the WS on that job to instead boost the performance of other non-emp/relic jobs.

I see your point, but I fail to see how you can use this as a blanket effect to explain away all the WS when the same situation doesn't apply to every job or ws.

I never said "All Relics are fine", I simply rolled with Great Axe because that was the example he brought forth in his post.

There are quite a few that are still quite viable, Relic WS or no Relic WS. H2H (at 99), Gun, Bow, GKT, Scythe, Great Sword, Club, Great Axe, Shield, Horn, and Dagger are all very well off.

Sword is okay, but could really use some work.

Katana, Staff, Axe, and Polearm are complete and utter shit and need some serious rethinking.

Looking at it that way, the majority of relics are okay - and almost all of the big DD relics are still doing well. Polearm is the only pure DD relic that really stands out as utter shit, and Katana is just sorta sad. No one but GuttlerBSTs care about Axe, though I guess they could use a bone from time to time, and lolClaustrum all the way to the bank.

So no, I don't really think all Relic WS need an overhaul. Many Relic weapons are so innately powerful outside of their WS, that they are actually at an advantage in some cases by being able to pick and choose which WS they want to use without losing out on their OTD/ODD. Mandaus should be using Mercy Stroke because it is amazing, but there's nothing wrong with a Ragnarok user spamming Resolution. If Raggy with Resolution can stand up to a Caladbolg using Torcleaver, is there really a need to mess with Scourge?

That's all I'm trying to get at.

[newmonkey]

Ukon can cap haste with at least -26 pdt, i'd have to check the magic damage sets off hand to compare all whilst blowing bravura away in both ws damage and dot thanks to a 30-50% odd aftermath.

Bravura needs a huge dps as i said to even it out with ukon a 30% built in odd would be a good start instead of 20%

95 Bravura - DMG:146 Delay:488 Accuracy+35 - 20% odd - Aftermath 20.4% dmg taken.

95 Ukonvasara - DMG:144 Delay:482 STR+17 30-50% odd aftermath

So the str on the ukon actually puts it ahead in pure base dmg form, it blows it away in ws and dot and you think because bravura has the aftermath it does we don't have a problem lol ok.

[Prothscar]

You're taking the Accuracy+35, -30 Evasion procs, and 18.5% DEF down of Metatron Torment for granted.

If Ukonvasara caps haste with 26% PDT, Bravura caps haste with -46.4% PDT, -33.4% MDT, -33.4% BDT without counting Dark Rings.

So what you're really looking at is:

95 Bravura - DMG:146, Delay:488, Accuracy+35, Enemy Evasion -30, 20% chance of dealing 2x damage, -20.4% Damage Taken and Enemy DEF -18.5% from Metatron Torment

95 Ukonvasara - DMG:144, Delay:482, STR+17, 45% chance of dealing 2x damage and weak (5-10%) Slow effect from Ukko's Fury

[Insaniac]

If using Raging Rush with an extremely high damage weapon with +40 accuracy (Attack in 1-handers case, which is a lot better most of the time) keeps up with Ukko's Fury with a lower damage weapon, what's the big deal?

Bravura would also be significantly more powerful during Mighty Strikes, where they are able to spam Upheaval and keep their ODD on while Ukon is forced to use Ukko's Fury occasionally if they want their ODD aftermath.

Relics offer increased versatility. Their particular WS doesn't need to be their best DD WS because they aren't locked to their Relic WS in order to deal damage the way Emps are.

Bravura isn't the best example because metatron does have it's uses even if they are limited when you start factoring in fanatics drinks but a lot of relic WSs don't. The +40 acc is pointless on most mobs even with RCB if you can keep up stalwarts which everyone should be able to in any VW that you have any chance of winning. No part of any item that costs someone 130-300 mil(old prices) should be lacking in any way. Nor should any aspect of any emps suck like they do with Farsha and to a lesser extent Rhongo and Redemption. All of these weapons should be amazing in every way and a lot of relic WSs are simply pathetic as well as their aftermaths.

How long do you think mighty strikes lasts? If you're using mighty strikes chances are you are zerging and you are starting with 300% tp. Drop 1 300% ukko's for 50% odd on all hits vs Getting 1 extra upheaval and 16% 2.5x damage that doesn't work on DAs or TAs. Pretty bad argument. I won't argue against Bravura having it's uses outside of abyssea. It's a lot closer to Ukon than most relics are to their emps. But then you compare Ukon to Bravura almost anywhere but VW Ukon just completely crushes it. So they are pretty even one place and extremely unbalanced in favor of Ukon in others.

I can't understand where the resistance to relic WS buffs comes from other than wanting Emps to stay heads and tails above most relics in most situations.

Edit: I only used Raging Rush because there was so much Bravura talk already but my point still stands. If I spend the time and/or money finishing any ultimate weapon I want to use the WS for more than just PDT when fanatics is down. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Kitkat]

Ukon can cap haste with at least -26 pdt, i'd have to check the magic damage sets off hand to compare all whilst blowing bravura away in both ws damage and dot thanks to a 30-50% odd aftermath.

Bravura needs a huge dps as i said to even it out with ukon a 30% built in odd would be a good start instead of 20%

95 Bravura - DMG:146 Delay:488 Accuracy+35 - 20% odd - Aftermath 20.4% dmg taken.

95 Ukonvasara - DMG:144 Delay:482 STR+17 30-50% odd aftermath

So the str on the ukon actually puts it ahead in pure base dmg form, it blows it away in ws and dot and you think because bravura has the aftermath it does we don't have a problem lol ok.

As much as I hate to jump to the otherside I can't ignore something that has this much biased reasoning. As I stated in prior post, you need to adjust aftermath to compensate for down time and the fact it needs WS to activate. After adjustments the ODD does percentage is roughly in the 18~30% region (lv1-3 aftermath). The only real positive they have with ODD aftermath is that unlike relic hidden, it has the ability to proc on all hits that weapon does.

In ideal circumstance you can adjust this to a high of 24~35%, and if you have regain from cor, sch, atmacite, it can scale to almost 80~85% of this. Once again though, that is highly circumstantial being as the absolute low can drop to less than that of relic if you want to add even more detrimental debuffs/possibilities.

While I am for adjustments to relics, I can't really back something that is based on perfect hypothetical circumstance. That is why I added adjustments on the post I made comparing the two while trying to maintain a medium ground.