Relic Weapon Skills at Level 99

[Neisan_Quetz]

In Excal's case, combination of Eyeballing and other factors (possibly including improperly geared). Even then, at 95 KoR's damage compared to Vorpal is close, but as long as accuracy isn't an issue Vorpal still has an edge over it.

M Torment is better now than it was at 75 and outside abyssea does better than Raging (without BR up).

[Unleashhell]

In Excal's case, combination of Eyeballing and other factors (possibly including improperly geared). Even then, at 95 KoR's damage compared to Vorpal is close, but as long as accuracy isn't an issue Vorpal still has an edge over it.

M Torment is better now than it was at 75 and outside abyssea does better than Raging (without BR up).

Dude they aren't even close. And trust me I got the gear to go with it. I'm not one of these people that get a relic with crappy gear. I get gear first before a relic. My setup has good ACC along with a balance on modifiers and ATT.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're going to have to post averages then, I have KoR fairly close to Vorpal outside in optimal sets, but still lagging slightly.

If you're trying to compare to CDC well that's just a total loss.

[macross]

I compare bravura and ukko cause that what I see every day in my ls raids. We don' do abyssea, haven't in many months. All we do is new dynamis, some woe, and mostly VW. I see amano apoc bravura all comparing well to ukon. War usualy wins parses, but that's just cause war are war. Metatron can beat ukon, due to ukons dying etc, or when you use your 2h. Our last win, metatron was #1 with a 4300 ws as high, but the 2 ukons did die. Even so it still beat out kaiten and apoc and vere.

[Insaniac]

Didn't read the full thread forgive me if someone mentioned these things already.

I'll talk a bit about Mercy Stroke because I'm a Mandau4Lyfe.

MS is a great WS. It's got a solid mod and a decent aftermath. If I were to boost it without breaking it I would increase the base fTP to 4.0 and have in scale with TP similar to Rudra's. I would also change the aftermath by either a) Increasing the crit rate boost from 5% to 20% or b) Increasing the crit rate boost to 10% and add a crit damage boost of 10% that applies to the WS as well. I think option b may encroach a bit on Varja's territory.

A little off subject since this is about WSs but as far as blanket changes I would definitely change relic damage procs so that they would work on TAs and DAs. Really beyond that the issue with each relic and WS should be addressed individually because blanket buffs would only overpower some and leave others underpowered.

[Kaizersan]

Actually judging from Tanaka way of doing things I believe that Relic and Mythic ws will not be adjusted and the reason being is the new merit ws in some cases are close to emp damage and can be used by any weapon of that type thus giving relic and mythic holders access to a strong ws.

[Soidisant]

In all honesty, I don't feel the issue is really with Relics. Sure, some of them could do with tweaks to their aftermaths (e.g. Gungnir) and it would be nice if their was some consistency (i.e. hidden effect working on DA and TA) but other than that they're already pretty good.

The underlying problem for me is that some Empyrean WS'es are so fundamentally ridiculous that they overshadow any weapon that doesn't have access with them. It's not like all Empyreans demolish their Relic counterpart, it's only the ones with overpowered WS'es. And there's the real risk that if you buff Relics to match the top tier Empyreans, it would make the vast majority of Empyreans redundant.

Ideally I would have liked to see Relic WS'es damage boosted to levels just below that of Ukko's and Smite OR given a special property like partially ignoring level correction to help them keep up against higher tier mobs. Then to level the playing field for the weaker Empy's, have their meritable WS be on a similar damage level to Ukko's/Smite.

[Alerith]

I'm currently neither a Relic nor an Empyrean holder (34/50 Helms of Briareus!!!)

That being said, I started serious work on Almace last week, and here I am now finishing up the Helms stage. I've done all this with the help of a single friend, pick up groups and no linkshell.

The friend who comes with me is working on Kannagi and we are splitting helm drops. But in less than three weeks, I will have the level 80 Almace done, and that's while being lazy and going to get the NMs and helms at my own leisure AND while splitting helm drops. Granted the level 80 version is useless, Sobek skins aren't exactly Sins of Indignation.

You can't do this as easily with a Relic. To draw a fair comparison, I'll use the Relic sword, Excalibur. The time it would take to get an Excalibur is much longer, assuming you don't pour out of pocket for currency, and if you loaf around, you're only going to add to that already extensive time.

The overall time and effort required for a 75 Relic surpasses a that of an 85 Empyrean. You're looking at, MAYBE, a month of leisure work for an 85 Empy. You're still looking at 3+ Months of leisure work for a Relic. If you go super hardcore on both, you can probably get an Empy done in three days. For a relic, you're still looking at weeks if not over a month.

I think the only empy that can be considered comparable to a relic in time is Ochain, simply because of the Colorless Souls stage, and even then that's stretching it.

I agree that Relic WS should be stronger, and the weapons themselves better. They are the original "Ultimate Weapons" and if they end up the better of the three Ultimates at 99, I would be perfectly fine with that, even while holding an Almace.

[macross]

No, if you are super hardcore you can finish empy in the same amount of time. You would just find ways to make gil and buy the currency to supplement the currency you can farm. Empy is just faster reward, but total effort will be less. I said this before, if you had no time limit in dynamis, you could easily farm it in the same time frame.

Right now, 1 relic cost around 75m due to the over farming of dynamis due to the easiness of it. I could easily make relic #2 by buying. It would take me 11 days, only because of the artificial wait times.

Even so, you will have a lvl 95 relic vs an 85 empy with the same leisure time. Likely will have 99 relic before 90 empy if you are leisurely as well.

Everyone always fails to include the time you spend camping the 25+ nm's before you even start to camp briareus. If you
're talking lesiure time, with and avg repop time of 90 minutes per nm, just how many hours do you spend camping those? or are you simply understating the time you actually do spend playing every day. At least farming dynamis, I know it's only 2 hours a day. I know exactly how many coins i will get on avg, based on time put in.

Also your quantification of 'leisure time' is very vague. Is that 1 hour a day? 4 hours? 6 hours? How long did it take you to make parties to kill the VNMS? how long did it take you to get t2 pops to spawn them? How long do you take to farm 1 briareus and to kill it every day? how many do you do per day? You maybe done with the 80 stage in 3 weeks you say, but sobek is gonna be another challenge for 2 people. Good luck doing the 90 version without farming cruror to brew as well as getting the actual pop sets. You might recruit others to help, but that will just add to the total man hours you spend. 2 people farming dynamis daily can complete one within 50 days or less. The more man hours you add the faster it becomes. Same with relic, same with empy.

[Kitkat]

I could easily make relic #2 by buying. It would take me 11 days, only because of the artificial wait times.

Remark is contradicted by the following:

Everyone always fails to include the time you spend camping the 25+ nm's before you even start to camp briareus. If you
're talking lesiure time, with and avg repop time of 90 minutes per nm, just how many hours do you spend camping those? or are you simply understating the time you actually do spend playing every day. At least farming dynamis, I know it's only 2 hours a day. I know exactly how many coins i will get on avg, based on time put in.

Can't use biased arguments on one end of the spectrum to make your point. If you are going to do comparisons you need to drop the "artificial wait times" between NM spawns because these are the same as being restricted to 2hours per day in dynamis. Additionally, multiple people can do the trials at once (up to a full alliance) with different weapons, but this can be compared to relic WS trials (aside from they must all be same weapon) to complete trials. See how that works? Similarities negate one another, you can't subtract it from one side and not the other.


Now, given what I know about relic hidden and emp aftermath, not just from practice but from sources, I decided to do a little number crunching with a hypothetical base, 15%ta, 12%da, and 1000 attack rounds. To remove biased view I adjusted emp aftermaths by 60% (lower) to account for the fact they are only up 60% of the time in opposition of relics always there hidden. I compared the two as it currently is, where hidden only procs on first attack per round. I also listed what the outcomes would be if adjusted to work on all attacks of the weapon per round. I then compared this to higher effects of aftermath, but did not do further adjustments based on the fact it is still possible to keep the higher aftermaths up roughly 60% of the time (with all source haste this can raise up to ~78% but would produce a highly biased hypothetical).

Attack rounds: 1000
Triple attack: 15%
Double attack: 12%
Total attacks: 1270

Low end base: 50
ODD base: 100
30% activation at 100%: 381
60% Adjustment: 228
Total: 22800
OTD base: 150
13% activation rate per round: 130
Total:19500

Relic change

If 13% on all hits:
OTD procs: 165
Total: 24750

ODD @20% on all hits: 254
Total Damage: 25400

Occ 2.5 at 15%: 190
total damage: 23750

Emp comparison at higher aftermath

Lv2 Aftermath ~40%: 508
60% Adjustment: 304
Total Damage:30400

Lv3 Aftermath ~50%: 635
60% adjustment: 381
total damage: 38100

Acknowledgement of possible errors: This is all based on a hypothetical base number and assumes either "brick wall" fight or a stream of mobs being supplied removing downtime/wasted aftermath durations. Additionally, this assumes that relic hidden and emp aftermath react as multipliers on the damage dealt, rather than base damage being multiplied then factored into the remaining equation of damage dealt. If the base is multiplied for hidden, but ODD aftermath is multiplied on the damage dealt this would make relic hidden noticeably stronger on high def mobs, but explain why it appears weaker on overall fodder. I can not find trust worthy sources that state one way or the other at this point but will acknowledge this as a potential error anyway. I also acknowledge that the 2.5x hidden percentage may be wrong, I remember seeing that it was either 15% or 17%, but had trouble relocating the post on it.

That said, if it is found that both are factored in the same way then the fix would even out relic with emp, but emp would still have the potential to be stronger than relic due to higher scaling aftermath effect where as relic hidden is static due to being "always active" just lower proc rate.