Melee while casting?

[ManaKing]

See this is why I don't care if GG and I agree. He is reasonable and he actually cares about this. Also his sarcasm is delightful.

I apologize in advance that I bring up Zanshin and things like Steps often, but I want to make sure we are on the same page. The point is these are the kinds of toolkit fixes that we can actually expect to get from SE, right? We don't disagree on that at all.

We are aware of the kinds of additional systems that can be build on top of the existing codes. Zanshin is a representation of IF/THEN statements. I'm pretty sure I don't have to explain what these are because they are relatively self explanatory. We know that an action from a player can set off a chain of events that we can call secondary actions aka not actually actions for the sake of whether or not FFXI server will allow us to do more than 1 action at a time. It can also be regulated by conditions so that an action can always set off these chain of events or it has to satisfy specific conditions in order for the secondary actions to occur.

An example of an IF/THEN that doesn't have any conditions is Occult Acumen. You cast a spell. When the spell uses your MP you are given a percentage of it as TP. So long as you have Occult Acumen, this will occur every time (100%) you cast a spell and spend MP on it. If you fail to cast a spell or you don't have enough MP to cast because something removed your MP during the casting of the spell, then you don't get the TP.

In contrast, Zanshin only occurs when a player misses an attack. Furthermore, Zanshin has a conditional 'Zanshin' test you have to pass to see if Zanshin is going to proc. Zanshin only occurs at a set rate (X%), but that rate can be modified by equipment, merits, and job abilities (atmas as well). The server does a calculation to see if Zanshin will go off. If it does, then you make your Zanshin attack. Furthermore, you can make Zanshin act like it doesn't have a condition if you get your Zanshin rate to 100%. If you equip Nanatsusaya, then the server is still going to do the calculation, but it is always going to come up as true because you rigged the calculation with controllable factors.

The other thing I can observe that the Dev team uses is Arrays. Arrays are just ways that you can store information for other functions to use. The most obvious example is Steps. When you do a step, you get a step counter. If you are DNC main, you get 2 steps, if you are /DNC you get 1. Server is more than capable of keeping track of how many steps you currently have and also to make sure that you never have more than 5 of them. From this we can have a system in place that keeps track of specific kinds of actions and can tally them for use in other fuctions i.e. Flourishes. Afflatus Solace is another example of an array. The more damage you cure, the higher damage multiplier you gain for Holy. You also gain additional affects while under Afflatus Solace that is not related to it's array function, meaning that SE can make robust and multifaceted job abilities and traits, if they so choose. Look at how Zanshin is is affected by Hasso and Seigan if you need further proof of the complexity that can be added.

While none of this should be mind blowing for anyone, it should hopefully help you understand what I understand. The devs still have a working tool kit that can easily provide us with the sort of functions that would satisfy a large variety of requests. They choose not to give us things, they are not incompetent nor incapable of doing what we would want. The dreaded 'Balance' that is coming our way, might actually turn into a good thing.

The tools they have at their disposal are basic but powerful tools that can be used in a wide variety of applications. They are more than capable of creating code that can 'simulate' the effects of what it would be like to be able to cast and attack at the same time, at least from a numbers stand point even if they didn't go back and fiddle with the game's original engine code. They can also setup new systems, just like they did for DNC, SCH, WHM, NIN, and SAM more recently.

The mantra for all programmers is KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. The most efficient and clean way to fix a problem in programming is always the best. If you have 2 different ways to accomplish your objective, so long as both meet the same objectives you have, you use the one that takes the least amount of time and will require the least amount of debugging later. The point of programming is to solve problems quickly and efficiently. The only reason you pick more complicated coding is because you are looking to your future problems/expectations and your more complicated code is better suited to your future problem or will reduce the amount of work you will have to do later.

The point I make is that all of the things we want represented can be easily so long as you know how to use simple tools effectively. I can already see that they can use 2 very powerful, but basic functions on other jobs. I know what you can do with only those 2 functions and there is plenty that CAN be done based on what they have already done to other jobs.

To answer the question about reworking the engine so that a RDM can actually melee while casting. Can it be done? Almost 100% certain that it can. Is there a more SIMPLE solution that would use significantly fewer man(or woman)hours of programming? Extremely probable. Most fixes ARE patch fixes in programming. GG is not wrong in his sentiment that changing base code wouldn't happen, but for the sake of being a facetious asshole on the internet, if we talking about whether or not they could actually do it, I'm still sure that they could.

The other solution is that they get rid of the delay on magic. I'm not say this would happen, but once upon a time I used a Scythe on my DRK and would disengage/re-engage mobs because it drastically lowered the amount of time i spent between swings. This was exploitative at best and wasn't what the devs had intended, so they fixed it by giving actions a delay to prevent abuse. The only problem is that delay causes abuse to jobs that have any interest in doing more than 1 thing in rapid succession. For most DPS, this is not a problem because they almost exclusively auto attack > WS. For jobs like DRK or RDM that wish to do both at the same time, this is an absolute hindrance and partially explains why neither job has ever fared particularly well since both jobs were designed around more hybrid play. If the dev team wants to see if they can reduce the delay on ONLY magic, then I would be interested in if they could actually accomplish this. I'm not actually saying they can. I just know that they added delay after the fact and it's at least marginally possible that they can be selective about what they apply it to and what they do not. It will all come down to what they can actually do and if this fits into the 'balance' that we are all 'looking forward to'.

[cidbahamut]

The other thing I can observe that the Dev team uses is Arrays. Arrays are just ways that you can store information for other functions to use. The most obvious example is Steps. When you do a step, you get a step counter. If you are DNC main, you get 2 steps, if you are /DNC you get 1. Server is more than capable of keeping track of how many steps you currently have and also to make sure that you never have more than 5 of them. From this we can have a system in place that keeps track of specific kinds of actions and can tally them for use in other fuctions i.e. Flourishes. Afflatus Solace is another example of an array. The more damage you cure, the higher damage multiplier you gain for Holy. You also gain additional affects while under Afflatus Solace that is not related to it's array function, meaning that SE can make robust and multifaceted job abilities and traits, if they so choose. Look at how Zanshin is is affected by Hasso and Seigan if you need further proof of the complexity that can be added.

All I got from this was that you don't know what Arrays are.

[Greatguardian]

All I got from this was that you don't know what Arrays are.

Or how the server processes what we call "additional attacks".

Just so we're clear, Zanshin hits are not a second attack round or a second action. They're not even a subaction. The attack round is the action. Just because you "swing" more than once in that round does not mean there are multiple rounds going on.

Zanshin is just Double Attack with a check for a missed swing in the round.

None of that entire paragraph on Arrays made any sense at all, either. I'm sure SE uses plenty of various data structures in their code, but that doesn't really mean anything to us. Likewise, none of the examples you brought up have anything to do with Arrays... There is a sequence of checks and stats that are run whenever an action is performed successfully. Steps are just a buff. They're checked at the same time requisite MP is checked for spells.

You say "Look at Hasso and Seigan to see how complex this can be", but neither of these abilities are complex in the slightest - no, not even when combined with Zanshin. Not from a gameplay perspective, and not from a coding perspective either. No one is saying SE can't work within the bounds of their own engine. I'm saying that they can't work outside it. If you haven't gleaned from any of the posts in this thread why Zanshin and MeleeCasting are extremely different beasts that fall on completely different sides of that line, I don't know what else to tell you.

I didn't ask you to define If statements. I didn't ask you to .... attempt? to define Arrays either. For the sake of discussion, assume that the audience knows all of this. I asked how you would apply these concepts to actually do something meaningful to the existing structure.

I am not discussing alternatives. I am not discussing concepts. We've been done with concepts for a while.

I have given you a concrete model to work with.

Apply something to it.

Don't explain it to the class.

Apply. Something.

I'm not being facetious. I'm not being sarcastic. I'm telling you that dancing around the issue and talking about concepts is not going to cut it. Anyone can talk concepts.

You need to produce something concrete. I have absolutely no interest in continuing a conversation about fluff - which is sad, because this conversation would have potential if there was even a single speck of concrete alternative input on the actual topic.

[Shadowsong]

Stuff

#mymindisfulloffuck

No one is denying you dont THINK you know what you are talking about. It's apparent you have some interest in this, and you are passionate about it. But please, practice the open mindedness you preach to others to adopt.
We are trying to educate, though after 10 pages it looks more clubbing a baby seal

[ManaKing]

I contribute nothing to actual discussions.

Agreed. If you want to get childish about this, at least I contribute. What do you do?