[dev1049] Stardiver Polearm WS

[Dragonlord]

You're correct, anything with WS+ dmg is calculated after the WS's normal formula. The best thing this WS has going for it other than the elemental gorget's/belt's fTP on all hits is the 100% str mod, still not enough to make up for the total 1 fTP lost.

[Javarr]

Was reading over this and remembered the whole RK Lance v. Dark Mezraq arguments back in the day.

Anyway, what I was going to say before I had that random derail is this:

In the same way that people used to say the Dark Mezraq and later on the Mezraq and Thalassocrat were better then any was due to their effect on the target's evasion. The same can be said for Stardriver, due to it's Critical Hit Evasion Down effect. I believe the devs meant this to be a setup WS.

IE: Launch Stardriver > Inflict CHE- on the target > Launch Drakesbane > ??? > Profit

With events coming out of Abyssea (Thank god), we are not going to have the massive +Crit rate anymore, so this will somewhat help to maintain some of that edge. If we can not have the high Crit hit rate, let's bring the mobs down to us instead.

I do have to admit, I was hoping it was gonna be rockin like I've heard some of the others are, but I do think that used properly, this could become a valuable tool. May not crank out the E-peen numbers by itself, but could work to help crank up other numbers instead.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[Amador]

Was reading over thttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17719-dev1049-Stardiver-Polearm-WS/page5his and remembered the whole RK Lance v. Dark Mezraq arguments back in the day.

Anyway, what I was going to say before I had that random derail is this:

In the same way that people used to say the Dark Mezraq and later on the Mezraq and Thalassocrat were better then any was due to their effect on the target's evasion. The same can be said for Stardriver, due to it's Critical Hit Evasion Down effect. I believe the devs meant this to be a setup WS.

IE: Launch Stardriver > Inflict CHE- on the target > Launch Drakesbane > ??? > Profit

With events coming out of Abyssea (Thank god), we are not going to have the massive +Crit rate anymore, so this will somewhat help to maintain some of that edge. If we can not have the high Crit hit rate, let's bring the mobs down to us instead.

I do have to admit, I was hoping it was gonna be rockin like I've heard some of the others are, but I do think that used properly, this could become a valuable tool. May not crank out the E-peen numbers by itself, but could work to help crank up other numbers instead.

Just my two cents on the matter.

There are a few things interestingly wrong in this post let's start with your derail on which was better.

Dark Mezraq, higher base damage and the enfeeble debuff was actually amazing granting -20 Evasion Down on the Enemy.

As well as the rest of the Polearms until Celtine - Valk's Fork was released which replaced them.

Let's talk about Stardiver because you obviously didn't read well enough into what has been said here already.

The Critical Evasion Down Debuff is garbage, it's 5%. A fodder Katana from some NM in Abyssea-Grauberg has the same effect granting 10-15%, we get 5%. Horrid.

Let's talk about Profit, it isn't profit when you buy a Ten Dollar Bill, for Nine Dollars and then convert it for a Ten Dollar Bill for One Dollar. In the case of Stardiver you're going to end up damaging your DPS by much more, having to use the WS on a minute to minute basis just to keep the effect up. It's not worth it. This is being approached the same way people are approaching another VERY similar weapon skill, the new Scythe WS. Same fTP issue.

It needs a boost, that's all that can be said to it.

[SpankWustler]

That would definitely be true if the Critical Hit Evasion Down were significant, but it's only 5% according to quite reliable tests. Other than the plague effect from Shijin Spiral, actually, all of the additional effects from the new weaponskills are lower than one would expect.

Increasing the potency of the additional effect could be a way to make Stardiver see more use, though.

My own suggestion is that they re-name the weaponskill "Stardriver" and change the animation. While the new version will still have a disappointing fTP value, it will now assault monsters with deludes of innuendo and phallic imagery involving giant robots.

[saevel]

Ok we gotta understand that DRG's got their *real* Emperian WS from Nyzule Isle lol. Drakesbane is a four hit crit WS, its on par with most emperian WS's and better then others. So lets try not to compare Stardiver to Drakesbane, especially that every DRG can get Drakes easily. Stardiver seems to be more for polearm builds on SAM and WAR then for DRG's. And before people start complaining, imagine your Drakesbane was similar to SAM's Rana.

[Ophannus]

Amador, you forget these weapon skills are not job specific. So therefore these weapon skills are not meant to replace things like Ukko's Fury, Drakesbane, Stringing Pummel. Stardiver is meant to give Drakesbane-like power to other Polearm wielding jobs or to even the disparity between Drakesbane and all other polearm WS. If Stardiver were a job specific weapon skill, than it would be a different story.

Also, if Stardiver was stronger than Drakesbane, don't you think SAM and WAR would hop on that bandwagon and start using Polearms? I can guarantee that if Stardiver outdamaged Drakesbane, WAR and SAM would make better use of it than DRG since WAR has Berserk/Hasso/Bloodrage/DA and SAM can spam TP like crazy.

[Dragonlord]

Sam and war get nothing near as good polearms as drg, this WS would still be worthless to them. However whm is getting its toes stepped on with realmrazer by pld since they get at least 1 good club.

[saevel]

Sam and war get nothing near as good polearms as drg, this WS would still be worthless to them. However whm is getting its toes stepped on with realmrazer by pld since they get at least 1 good club.

People said that back at 75 and it didn't stop SAM's and WAR's from beating out DRG's back then. SAM has access to the couse's and while their not as good as the lances, their are still a few that are high DMG with 480 delay (Draca couse is 112DMG 480 Delay STR+7). Jobs like SAM do not need to do higher WS damage then a DRG, they'll just increase quantity to compensate. If this WS was better then Drakes Bane, then SAM/WAR + Stardiver would beat out a DRG/SAM with Stardiver every time.

[Byrth]

Wearing Gorget/Belt/TP Bonus Moonshade boosts it back up to about 4 fTP, but I agree that it probably should have been 5-hits if they were going to put this mechanic on it.

Drakes is 4-hits, Crit, and 50% STR. Polearm base damage is substantial.
Stardiver with 140 STR:
127 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 283 base damage
322*3.93 = 1112 Base Damage*fTP

Drakes with 200 STR:
63 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 219 base damage
241*4 = 876 Base Damage*fTP

So (in an extreme case), Stardiver has a ~25% base damage lead over Drakes. Drakes has a 20-30% crit rate in WS gear. Crits increase pDIF by between 50 and 100%. As it is, it's hard to argue that Stardiver is an improvement over Drakes except in very strange situations where you're fighting EP monsters with buffs and a low crit rate/Damage. If cRatio drops (high level or high defense targets), then the value of crits goes way up and bridges the gap. If Crit rate or Crit Damage goes up (like in Abyssea), then the value of crits/being able to crit goes way up and bridges the gap.

Overall, it lacks a fifth hit. It also lacks a useful WS property. It should have been Fragmentation.

Edit: I guess it is worth noting that the Weapon Skills category is headed with "Group 1." Assuming that "Group 2" enhances "Group 1," we perhaps shouldn't be so quick to judge.

[Nynja]

However, for those of us who have been playing a while... I myself, am tired of seeing Drakesbane. It's a WS that is nearly 5 years old. It needs to be replaced by something, even if it's a marginal replacement.

Tell that to the war's spamming Raging Rush for 8 years, the Ninja's spamming Jin since RotZ came out, the Thieves spamming DE for 8 years, the MNK's spamming Asuran for 8 years, the SAM's spamming Gekko since RotZ...really, 5 years aint shiet.