Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

[Rezeak]

The idea of seeing a new proc system for skillchain/mb makes me ;;

More mobs like Qutrubs/AMK moogles meaning you get quad DMG skillchains and double magic burst bonus making these mobs drop fast for those clever enough to exploit this weakness is the way to go.

Outside that i still solo skillchain and mb on SCH and i see BLUs skillchaining like crazy still so i don't think it's dead.

Not to mention sekkoni WS x2 > Light or darkness = wrecked mob is awesome still

[Sappho]

FFXI evolved and changed for better or worse.

Anyone that says that SC+MB *always* sucked is an absolute moron.

They definitely had a very important place in the past.

If the math gurus have gone out and done serious hard number crunching with actual experiments (not anecdotes) and have determined that everyone spamming WS as soon as TP hits 100% is a far better Damage Over Time then setting up SCs then so be it. The game evolved away from SCs.

Anybody want to post those hard numbers? Or is everyone just pissing in the wind about what is really better?

[cidbahamut]

FFXI evolved and changed for better or worse.

Anyone that says that SC+MB *always* sucked is an absolute moron.

They definitely had a very important place in the past.

If the math gurus have gone out and done serious hard number crunching with actual experiments (not anecdotes) and have determined that everyone spamming WS as soon as TP hits 100% is a far better Damage Over Time then setting up SCs then so be it. The game evolved away from SCs.

Anybody want to post those hard numbers? Or is everyone just pissing in the wind about what is really better?

It's a pretty simple concept to follow on paper. I've not seen skillchain damage in forever so if the numbers are for it I'll be all for it. That said, consider the following scenario.

2 DDs, one has a 6-hit build while the other has a 5-hit build.

By the time the DD with the 6-hit build reaches 100 TP, the other DD will be sitting on 120 TP. Let us further assume for the sake of argument that each DD's weaponskill inflicts 2,000 damage. That 20 TP overflow could have been put towards a second weaponskill, so in order to keep pace the skillchain will need to inflict at least 20% of the weaponskill's damage.
2,000 damage * (0.20) = 400 damage
That's just for a basic skillchain with two DDs, and that's just to break even. To be superior it would need to exceed 400 damage.

Now throw in more DDs, single-handed weapons, and human error. Every component increases the damage the skillchain needs to achieve in order to be the superior battle tactic.

With anecdotes of skillchains dealing less than 100 damage, it seems unlikely that the math will favor it, but I'm willing to change my tune if there's some hard data to the contrary.

[scaevola]

This is the pertinent comment. For anyone who doesn't understand it, here is a bit of explanation:

The only situations I see people use Skillchains or Magic Bursts anymore is either self-chains or groups playing around or showing off.

The reason for this is very clear - while a skillchain does allow for more damage, which is excellent if you can pull off a self-skillchain, very rarely does TP in a party match up so that people can blast weapon skills at the exactly right time, and the damage from waiting for a skillchain or using a weapon skill with a little bit of extra TP simply does not match up enough in many situations to justify putting the effort into a skillchain.

If people really want Skillchains + Magic Bursts to be more viable, there either has to be more damage or other effects from performing them all around, and a better reward for using a weapon skill without having to hit one of the 100/200/300 TP marks exactly.

There are a ton of suggestions that could be made to this end, like having a level four skillchain that requires three skillchains (so players can't self-skillchain it) or making magic bursts boost the potency of -ja style spells. Posting these would be more helpful then simply "making SC+MB neccisary for a victory" by far.

The only way to bring SC > MB back for general purposes is to make Sekkanoki a permanent passive trait.

(note that this would be a horrible idea and would not actually succeed in bringing back SC > MB)

[ManaKing]

I try to skillchain when possible, but I'd never go out of my way to do so. Hey, I'm horrible at math, and I don't understand all the damage formulas but I know things go better when I just use my most powerful WS and my fellow DDs do the same. If we happen to skillchain then awesome! Bonus damage! If the mage happens to MB off of us, sweet! Even more bonus damage! If we all hold our TP and MP waiting for that magic moment... no.

I'm sure others here could figure it out, but I can't imagine how much damage they'd have to add to the skillchains and MB bonus themselves to make them worth doing.

Of course, what I really wanted to say to the OP is... your avatar is really, really pretty! I mean... my gosh... I love your hair! And your eyes! And... you have the best complexion.. Well I could just say you have the prettiest face ever... and...wait I did already... oh, I should stop! Sorry! Got carried away! Um... /blush... yeah anyway... bye!

IDK, yours is pretty amazing as well. I might have to dye mine's hair to go darker at some point *laughs*.

[ManaKing]

Biggest misconception ever. Right on par with EXP grinding at 5k/hr 1-75 is required to learn how to play a job.

Skillchains don't have a skill aspect. It's so easy, a caveman could do it.

There is no misconception about it. I've seen plenty of people who have no idea how to do a SC properly, much less what it will make. I get that you don't like SC > MB but at least don't talk like an opinion is a fact, when what we are talking about is an opinion.

My opinion is that SCing and team work are aspects of online game play that I appreciate and keep me interested and invested in playing. Your "fact" that SCing doesn't always yield more damage is legitimate, but it does nothing to address the current state of the game that boils down to an extremely stale and boring proc system. If you like a proc system that doesn't rely on actual player cooperation, then why are you playing online with other people? I would much rather make SCs than spam moves that have no actual purpose in teaching anyone to play better in a cooperative manner.

SCs are about actual synergy between people, where as this proc system is about nothing more than bringing the right ingredients to a fight and mashing them into the pot. There is nothing interesting or additive to the experience. I expect more from a game that actually had good game play for majority of it's first 75 levels.

It's a pretty simple concept to follow on paper. I've not seen skillchain damage in forever so if the numbers are for it I'll be all for it. That said, consider the following scenario.

2 DDs, one has a 6-hit build while the other has a 5-hit build.

By the time the DD with the 6-hit build reaches 100 TP, the other DD will be sitting on 120 TP. Let us further assume for the sake of argument that each DD's weaponskill inflicts 2,000 damage. That 20 TP overflow could have been put towards a second weaponskill, so in order to keep pace the skillchain will need to inflict at least 20% of the weaponskill's damage.
2,000 damage * (0.20) = 400 damage
That's just for a basic skillchain with two DDs, and that's just to break even. To be superior it would need to exceed 400 damage.

Now throw in more DDs, single-handed weapons, and human error. Every component increases the damage the skillchain needs to achieve in order to be the superior battle tactic.

With anecdotes of skillchains dealing less than 100 damage, it seems unlikely that the math will favor it, but I'm willing to change my tune if there's some hard data to the contrary.

I mean that is what I'm talking about. SCs and MBs actually doing more damage so that they would be worth it to even the math crunchiest of peoples.

I get that data crunching is fun for some people and they only care about the most efficient strategy, trust me I do. But for the rest of us that actually realize that we are playing a game and actually want to be able to enjoy it, we would really like additive game play that isn't just about data crunching. We would like to have an enjoyable and memorable experience; and that just isn't made out of pretending we are machines.

Watching mobs blow up in front of you from cooperative effort is my favorite memory from early FFXI. Sure the story lines are good and character building is fun, but some of the game play is starting to get sour.

[Greatguardian]

If people actually don't know how to Skillchain, are they having trouble figuring out that pants no go on head too?

@Sappho, I'm honestly too lazy to redo math that was done years ago to appease this discussion. I'll admit it. I'm lazy, and I have no vested interest in it. However, if you want a synopsis, skillchains suffer from lowest common denominator syndrome.

Skillchains decrease or nullify the value of x-hits and additional attacks (DA, TA) on WS damage because, no matter how fast Player A gets TP, they will always have to wait for Player B to get TP before they can weaponskill. If Player A gets two triple attacks in a row on WAR, while Player B misses twice in a row, Player A will be sitting at 300 TP before Player B is ready to skillchain with him.

Beyond that, Skillchains require the entire party/alliance to stop and hold their TP for the assigned pair to skillchain, a matter which can take 4-5 seconds on its own, or longer if there is a magic burst involved. People are sitting on their hands over nothing.

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked. People also hunted IT+++++++++ monsters for EXP, and thought 5k/hr was epic JP button godmode exp.

Skillchains phased out because people got better at the game, not worse. Reminisce about the good old days all you want. That doesn't mean that running Kirin around with an Earth Staff Paladin for 6 hours was ever a bloody good idea.

[Chriscoffey]

If people actually don't know how to Skillchain, are they having trouble figuring out that pants no go on head too?

@Sappho, I'm honestly too lazy to redo math that was done years ago to appease this discussion. I'll admit it. I'm lazy, and I have no vested interest in it. However, if you want a synopsis, skillchains suffer from lowest common denominator syndrome.

Skillchains decrease or nullify the value of x-hits and additional attacks (DA, TA) on WS damage because, no matter how fast Player A gets TP, they will always have to wait for Player B to get TP before they can weaponskill. If Player A gets two triple attacks in a row on WAR, while Player B misses twice in a row, Player A will be sitting at 300 TP before Player B is ready to skillchain with him.

Beyond that, Skillchains require the entire party/alliance to stop and hold their TP for the assigned pair to skillchain, a matter which can take 4-5 seconds on its own, or longer if there is a magic burst involved. People are sitting on their hands over nothing.

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked. People also hunted IT+++++++++ monsters for EXP, and thought 5k/hr was epic JP button godmode exp.

Skillchains phased out because people got better at the game, not worse. Reminisce about the good old days all you want. That doesn't mean that running Kirin around with an Earth Staff Paladin for 6 hours was ever a bloody good idea.

I killed several mobs with skillchains faster than any damn party you could have put together other than a ranger burn. I am not sure exactly what game you were playing back in 03-04 but it wasn't the same one I was. People didn't get BETTER they got over buffed to compensate for the jobs being weak(mostly just people saying they got tired of chipping away HP on mobs).

I have read so many of your post and i agree on some but on this topic you are completely off base. When exactly did you start playing this game to have such an opinion about this? I was plane hacking 16,000 exp/hour on smn with a bst on pets, on my first character, when this 5k/hr was epic but that didn't mean the majority of the time on regular mobs it was shit. I also never had a party with any job kill as fast as a distortion/freeze(while leveling) death either.

There were gimmick ways to do things but the majority of the time it wasn't easy because of all this upgraded crap SE has thrown our way. I would challenge most of you to fight Fafnir/Tiamat/Vrtra/etc back at 75 before any of the good updates to jobs were introduced ( This means no guilo/penta 60TP type things/etc). It would be epic just how GOOD people think they are now to see how much has changed.

I want to get back to cooperation and team play. SC should be brought back into play like mentioned above. This zerg fest full time needs taken out and team work put back into the playing style. I saw this style coming to fruitation as K club came into existence then even more when they started huge buffing after 2 handed update. The game IMO has went to hell since then.

[Sappho]

As for the past, no. Skillchains were never, ever good. People did them. That didn't mean they were good. People did Skillchains because people did not understand how the game worked.

You were around during the NA release in October 2003? I'm not saying the past is better than the present and I frankly don't give a fig leaf about going back.

**But** back in the days where you had a fixed party of the same six players leveling together (because everyone had to be the same level) the party format was typically: PLD, WHM, BLM, BRD/RDM, DD, DD.

The only people that had to worry about the Skill Chain rotation were the two DD. If one of the two DD couldn't get his shit together so that both were building TP at the same rate then you kicked his ass to the curb and found someone that didn't suck.

Once WoW came along and every game company in the world wanted to dumb down their shit to the zerg mentality so that they could have an MMO with ten million subscribers, then everything changed.

I never had to sit in Jeuno for six hours with my party flag up waiting for a group. Because I was awesome.

But I quit right before COP launched to go play WoW and farm purplez six nights a week in the same lame ass raid zone. Wheeeee!!!!!

Would I like FFXI to return to the much more difficult days of the past?
Let me try Abyssea for six months and I'll get back to you. I still haven't seen those areas.

[Greatguardian]

I've been playing since windows release in October 2003.

People got better.

Want to know the biggest thing people finally got through their heads years after the game was released?

Fighting IT++++++++ monsters as an EXP party is pants on head retarded.

DDs didn't get uberbuffs out of nowhere. They just started targeting VT monsters which gave them tons more EXP/hour and weren't flooring their Accuracy and Ratio.

Tiamat and Fafnir were also always piss easy, even before the 2H buff. Vrtra was only ever really difficult because of his pets, area aggro, and charm - which meant bringing a larger number of people. Most shells with the requisite numbers were capable of killing him, hell most still are, it's just rarely worth it. Besides, nowadays he's always down because BSTs solo him for the Cashmere.