Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

[ManaKing]

That's you. I have tremendous amounts of fun zerging things. I also prefer to play with my smallish group of friends willingly rather than be forced to accept anyone for an exp party simply because they are the job we need. And Im sorry you apparently had such a bad experience in Abby, I suggest including some friends in your adventures even if you dont HAVE to have them. It seems like you are actively avoiding interaction with others.

What do you say to the people who enjoy this gameplay? (and here's a hint, we are the majority. And if you dont believe that, ask yourself why these methods were developed in the first place)

You completely missed the point. I do things with a group of 5-12 people constantly. I don't mind that people SSC, but what bothers me is that even with all of us on vent and having a good time together, we still don't really ever have a good reason to SC because it can literally slows down the DPS that we do on mobs with decent magical resistance.

I don't dual box because it is as boring as possible, I just said that I can and that nothing would stop me from getting gear. If you want to come up with more party tactics with me in addition to SCs and MBs I would be extremely appreciative. What I am looking for is more party play. I want cooperation that actually wield benefits because it is a more rewarding style of play that is more memorable.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't zerg plenty of content, I'm just saying I'm getting sick of it being the only thing people do because they don't have incentives to make their jobs work together. SE added incentive to zerg a long time ago, but if you look at the empy weapons, they don't do anything to slow the trend down. A bunch of weapons that you can SSC dark or light if you are /SAM. They don't make anything better if you mix them with other people, they don't add anything to cooperative play. These are the pieces of equipment that everyone wants to have for even casual play at this point.

I want large bonuses to SCs that aren't SSC, I want there to be more than just double dark and light as the end result for a coordinated SC, and I want SE to add SCing as a cornerstone of what their next endgame content is so that I can be sure that people actually know what they are doing.

[ManaKing]

No one ignores it, but it's the prime example of a "spherical chicken in a vacuum". It's situational math that ignores many of the very common traps of an EXP party, such as other people having to hold their WS too not to interrupt the SCing parties. Also differing accuracy and multihit variables, which may have the same expected value but increase the variance, which means cases where the two don't line up perfectly are more common. Another factor is TP return after WS, which may place one job ahead of another. Disregarding even the fact that despite x-hit builds it may take people a different amount of time to get to the required TP. What if a SAM uses Meditate? What if Conserve TP kicks in, what if one job makes 50 TP after opening the SC before the other job can even go? And, probably the biggest factor, is that sometimes the best weapon skills don't close required Skillchains. Will you give up Ukko's Fury to close a Darkness Skillchain?

Also, keep in mind that his math was performed with jobs that get a Skillchain bonus.

Skillchains are not rewarding enough to be employed regularly. That's the only reason why people don't do it. Sometimes it actually is rewarding, and that's when people do use it (see my first example, KS99 turtle). But most of the time it's just not worth it, nowhere near it.

+1'd and quoted for emphasis.

Arcon is looking at the reality of this situation. There are plenty of reasons that SCs aren't being used right now. The numbers that Motenten gave us are correct, but they apply to jobs that don't have to wait for another person anyways. There is no reason for a SAM, DNC, or BLU to wait on anyone else, currently. They can SSC and make sure it is well timed and that the second WS is the correct WS, because they are the one's doing it.

I'm saying what about the rest of us? What about the people that would like to benefit from SCing and MBing and party play? What can we come up with as a request to SE so that they can put it into the game to make us happy with our future updates?

This doesn't have to be some epic fight to the death over opinions and misunderstandings. The past is the past. It doesn't matter whether or not you think SCs were effective in the past. The point is if you are actually attempting to make this game better than you should be focusing on the present and the future. I only reference the past because my memories of party play in FFXI for the first couple of years are much more positive than they are right now. The reason for that was the emphasis on party Tactics.

If you want SCs to actually be in the game and used, then please contribute ideas instead of turning this into an argument. If everyone agrees that they would like more party play, then start talking about that instead of things that are irrelevant about the past.

I'm still asking for SCs to be put back into end game boss fights. I'm still asking for party play to be integral for SOME boss fights. It doesn't have to be every boss and it doesn't have to be another proc system(I'd prefer if it didn't), it just has to give us more TACTICS that we can use against mobs. Thus why I brought up SC in the Tactics forum, because it used to be a tactic and now it really isn't. I wish that addressed.

[Motenten]

The point of my post was to show that, taken at face value, skillchaining -- including holding TP to skillchain -- is worth it, as it improves overall DPS. That was to counter the argument that skillchaining is not and has never been worthwhile simply due to TP sync issues.

The problem is that we don't get skillchain damage "at face value", except on fairly weak mobs where a skillchain is generally going to be overkill anyway. We instead get heavily crippled skillchain damage on any mob where we'd give serious consideration to using this tactic.

Note: I was -not- talking about self-skillchaining. My numbers were explicitly for someone who had to wait for another DD to reach 100 TP to initiate the skillchain.


There are two changes that are needed for skillchains to be considered useful:

1) Fix the missing log info when you change gear. It's alright if the animation doesn't show (though it would be nice if it did), but the players absolutely need to be able to see the damage done for it to be "real".

2) Adjust the accuracy of the skillchain effect. This is very vague, as we really have no idea what affects the "magic accuracy" of the skillchain damage. I would be inclined to take a page from blue magic and make the accuracy the same as the accuracy of the mainhand weapon that closed the chain, but I have no reference point as to how that would compare to the current system.

The sc accuracy is obviously checked against the mob's magic evasion. We know that mages and cors can do respectable damage with nukes (ie: non-resisted, generally), aside from certain elements on particular mobs, and we know that the magic accuracy available to them is in the same general vicinity as the physical accuracy available to melee. So why is it that the melee's skillchain damage is lucky to break double digits on higher end mobs (the equivalent of a third or fourth tier resist)?

Whatever the cause, it needs fixing.

Those two things are really all that's needed for skillchaining to be a potentially useful tactic in fights. It won't always be useful, but it at least -can- be useful some of the time.

[Shadowsong]

If you want to come up with more party tactics with me in addition to SCs and MBs I would be extremely appreciative. What I am looking for is more party play. I want cooperation that actually wield benefits because it is a more rewarding style of play that is more memorable.

I have paid this company over $1200 so far in my life. THEY make the content, I play it.
I think the discussion would have been more productive if the OP used the terminology you just did.
We should be discussing how to make teamwork and cooperation more rewarding, not how to bring back an atiquated mechanic. That said though, I have no problem with them making SC more viable, and I don't think anyone does :/

edit: An idea could be to make each WS done on a mob throughout a fight weaken it towards further WS from other players. Or make it so certain Job Abilities work better when used in conjunction with others jobs' JA. Just rough ideas off the top of my head, but I think this is an unexplored region mechanics-wise and has a lot of potential.

[Sp1cyryan]

Walls, fences, and sidewalks of text everywhere.

There really is nothing to debate on this. Once you saw the OP request for SC MB to be "mandatory again" you should have just walked away.

That or tried to keep the response to two letters. Simply an N and an O is all you need.

[ManaKing]

I have paid this company over $1200 so far in my life. THEY make the content, I play it.
I think the discussion would have been more productive if the OP used the terminology you just did.
We should be discussing how to make teamwork and cooperation more rewarding, not how to bring back an atiquated mechanic. That said though, I have no problem with them making SC more viable, and I don't think anyone does :/

edit: An idea could be to make each WS done on a mob throughout a fight weaken it towards further WS from other players. Or make it so certain Job Abilities work better when used in conjunction with others jobs' JA. Just rough ideas off the top of my head, but I think this is an unexplored region mechanics-wise and has a lot of potential.

I am the OP. I brain storm while the topic open because the point of having a forum conversation is so that I can have people come up with things that might not be in line with my original ideas. I don't care if my original point becomes moot over the course of the discussion so long as I am given enough opinions and concerns to warrant it.

I apologize if sometimes my original posts are inflammatory. I generally post when I think of something that doesn't sit right with me, so I am generally very strongly opinionated when I post. The result is that my original post only encompasses what I wanted changed at the time. But as I get more feedback from other people, my opinion can change so long as i see the merit of their opinion.

Motenten has been an amazing source of information on this thread alone. I would completely stand behind anything she (i'm assuming) says because she already understands more of fine details that need to be explored and commented on. Both of her fixes sound completely legitimate and objectively worded. What is SC accuracy based on? I have no idea. Also I would love to know exactly how much damage SCs do every time I do one. While it might not be the fix I wanted at the time I posted, it might be the first step in putting SCs back in the game in a more permanent manner.

[Shadowsong]

The OP was not inflammatory, it just gave me a bad vibe, idk how to describe it. It came off as preachy, sorry if that offends lol. Usually whenever someone has a "have to" or a "must" somewhere in an OP it's bound to attract craziness.

I tend to try and be as broad as possible in any OP I make to foster the discussion.

This conversation should move away from making Skillchains more viable, since basically the only fix to that would be to "make them do more damage".
Lets discuss what else we can do to make teamwork more rewarding. Maybe an offshoot of the proc system can be applicable.

[Cdryik]

Or just make Skillchains proc weaknesses.

This !

Make skillchain proc weaknesses, then magic burst enhance the effect of the proc !

[Tsukino_Kaji]

This !

Make skillchain proc weaknesses, then magic burst enhance the effect of the proc !

Except the MB still will be a different element.

[Nynja]

need more mobs with slight qutrub mechanics for this. Give the mobs substantial HP, make them take normal damage, but SC/MB's deal 5x dmg. The people who you are calling lazy are right. Whats the point of forcing yourself to hold to 150-200%TP to deal an extra 1k dmg in SC dmg, when you could have just WSed twice at 1.5k each without dealing with coordination and timing?

do less work, get more results.