Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

[Arbole]

Back in the days of sky and sea, you'd usually be mage heavy because melee could barely hit and/or do any damage to sky/sea gods. Sky gods would mess melee up with their 2-hrs when someone doesn't turn for shadowbind on Seiryu. Every TP move and spell from JoH or JoL would mess up any melee besides plds close to the mob, so a "run in and SC +MB" mentality was both effective damage-wise, and safe practice (rngs were also used by my shells). This mentality lost focus in experience parties when ToAU and birds camps came out, but remained for endgame of the generation, such as ZNM (sara/tinnin, level). Level cap increase came, sky mobs could be hit, hurt, and broken by higher level players. This goes for sea, as well. If SE wants SC + MB to come back in full force, they'd release endgame content to where the big bosses can hardly be hit, hardly be physically damaged, and can one-shot swarms of melee every TP move like olden days. I understand VW bosses do that now, but those don't really count when everyone is given fanatic drinks or whatnot after every proct. This is my personal history of xp parties and endgame tactics throughout the years I've lived in Vana'diel. I personally love SCing and MBing (hence I leveled sam and blm mains), but like everyone says, against mobs that don't have ridiculous eva/def/pdt, coordinating SCs + MBs have no place currently.

Oh, and I'd LOVE it if SE added Cosmic Elucidation as a higher tier SC.

[Chriscoffey]

Back in the days of sky and sea, you'd usually be mage heavy because melee could barely hit and/or do any damage to sky/sea gods. Sky gods would mess melee up with their 2-hrs when someone doesn't turn for shadowbind on Seiryu. Every TP move and spell from JoH or JoL would mess up any melee besides plds close to the mob, so a "run in and SC +MB" mentality was both effective damage-wise, and safe practice (rngs were also used by my shells). This mentality lost focus in experience parties when ToAU and birds camps came out, but remained for endgame of the generation, such as ZNM (sara/tinnin, level). Level cap increase came, sky mobs could be hit, hurt, and broken by higher level players. This goes for sea, as well. If SE wants SC + MB to come back in full force, they'd release endgame content to where the big bosses can hardly be hit, hardly be physically damaged, and can one-shot swarms of melee every TP move like olden days. I understand VW bosses do that now, but those don't really count when everyone is given fanatic drinks or whatnot after every proct. This is my personal history of xp parties and endgame tactics throughout the years I've lived in Vana'diel. I personally love SCing and MBing (hence I leveled sam and blm mains), but like everyone says, against mobs that don't have ridiculous eva/def/pdt, coordinating SCs + MBs have no place currently.

Oh, and I'd LOVE it if SE added Cosmic Elucidation as a higher tier SC.

I hope that is in consideration for some of the things mentioned about bringing back end game SC.

[Shadowsong]

That is pretty much what I'm saying because nobody wants teamwork apparently on an MMO just epeen numbers.

Well this is awfully pessimistic.
People in an MMO want 3 things- 1) To have fun 2) To play with other human beings and 3) To obtain gear and advance their characters
In response to you no, I do not want teamwork to accomplish less than what I can do solo. I would love to do teamwork that increases my effectiveness, why wouldn't I?

Yeah but it will vary accordingly. I just find that most people are so into this TP spam they don't want to change playing style to even consider teamwork in SC again.

Show me one person who is "not even considering it". It has been considered and rejected as inferior. I'm pretty sure actually that every single person in this thread said people would start doing SC again if the damage was upped to offset the TP holds, or some kinda debuff was added.

[Chriscoffey]

Well this is awfully pessimistic.
People in an MMO want 3 things- 1) To have fun 2) To play with other human beings and 3) To obtain gear and advance their characters
In response to you no, I do not want teamwork to accomplish less than what I can do solo. I would love to do teamwork that increases my effectiveness, why wouldn't I?



Show me one person who is "not even considering it". It has been considered and rejected as inferior. I'm pretty sure actually that every single person in this thread said people would start doing SC again if the damage was upped to offset the TP holds, or some kinda debuff was added.

As I said before if the mob was made where you needed SC to do anything to it(a huge increase in damage physical/magical reread my previous posting about this) in some form it wouldn't matter about holding TP much less about your parse end result which is what i was getting at before with the epeen comment. This would mean some job adjustments about how the SC was done or what it did ,however, it could bring back a bit more control and teamwork.

I can't understand why everything has to be a damn parsing event where you just blow shit up and then think "hell yeah this is fun". It was cool on Bahamut Ver.2 back in the day but it's gotten old to see it on every fucking mob we have thrown at us because "hey SC suck amirite? they nerf my damage output". This could change how people use X hits build for getting more TP than needed but still attacking the mob for DOT in between WS.

I welcome a change from this playing but I would go on to say I bet I'm in a minority considering the pace of MMO now where HARD or spending more than 30 minutes on END GAME is crossing into my TV time.

[ManaKing]

People in an MMO want 3 things- 1) To have fun 2) To play with other human beings and 3) To obtain gear and advance their characters
In response to you no, I do not want teamwork to accomplish less than what I can do solo. I would love to do teamwork that increases my effectiveness, why wouldn't I?

I can't agree more with this.

I feel like the zerging has led to less of 2) which leads to less of 1). Oh I can do 3) by just bringing a NIN and a WHM and just pressing the same 4 macros over and over again. Hell I can even dual box them so I don't have to bother with a 2nd person....this is pretty much aby in a nutshell for me.

VW is pretty similar to aby in this respect because all you do is bring as many people as you need to bother with and just chug temps all day long trying to proc....It's boring and random some days.

I really hope that the next generation of end game requires a little more planning that GOGOGOGOGOOGOGO RAWR!!!!!!! WSWSWSWSWSWSWSWSWS PROC!!!!! TEMPS!!!!! WSWSWSWS MAGIC X 20!!!! GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!!!!

[Shadowsong]

It seems that what you want is less making SCing more relevant, and more team related combat.
Instead of talking about making an old, dead, inefficient mechanic suddenly relevant again, we should talk about new concepts that rewards coordination

[Arcon]

Who here said they don't want SCs to be better? Who here said they only wanna zerg? You guys are making up your own enemies.

No one is arguing that. People are just arguing your stupid insistance on the absurd idea that SCs/MBs used to be better in the past. That's just wrong. Doesn't mean we don't want them to be useful.

[Shadowsong]

I feel like the zerging has led to less of 2) which leads to less of 1). Oh I can do 3) by just bringing a NIN and a WHM and just pressing the same 4 macros over and over again. Hell I can even dual box them so I don't have to bother with a 2nd person....this is pretty much aby in a nutshell for me.

That's you. I have tremendous amounts of fun zerging things. I also prefer to play with my smallish group of friends willingly rather than be forced to accept anyone for an exp party simply because they are the job we need. And Im sorry you apparently had such a bad experience in Abby, I suggest including some friends in your adventures even if you dont HAVE to have them. It seems like you are actively avoiding interaction with others.

What do you say to the people who enjoy this gameplay? (and here's a hint, we are the majority. And if you dont believe that, ask yourself why these methods were developed in the first place)

[Chriscoffey]

Who here said they don't want SCs to be better? Who here said they only wanna zerg? You guys are making up your own enemies.

No one is arguing that. People are just arguing your stupid insistance on the absurd idea that SCs/MBs used to be better in the past. That's just wrong. Doesn't mean we don't want them to be useful.

I really would have liked to see you guys ,who are pushing this concept at us, explain how it sucked against zerging which is what is implied by these asinine statements being made against it. I don't recall ANY zerging type from melee during my first years on this game from anything other than a ranger burn. I didn't see anyone ranger burning HNM from my experience. I have been on several servers through the years like Ifrit ( Claimtrain ), Seraph ( Kanzen also helping BTL ), Ragnarok ( no HNM but watched a few HNM fights ), Quetzalcoatl ( Perseverance ), Carbuncle ( few HNM LS ) and to the best of my knowledge SC was an effective way of doing some HNM not zerging from massive TP gain. It wasn't applicable to even get that much damn TP and that fast due to most jobs not having access to higher haste.

Like i said before I have no idea WHEN most of you became so active as players in the FFXI community but I know what I saw on multiple servers and SCing was effective until SE started jacking up melee.

EDIT: The main point of all of this is the haste factored a big deal in not being able to zerg as effective as today. Many jobs didn't have access to this much haste where it exponentially makes you faster as you get smaller amounts.

[Chriscoffey]

That's you. I have tremendous amounts of fun zerging things. I also prefer to play with my smallish group of friends willingly rather than be forced to accept anyone for an exp party simply because they are the job we need. And Im sorry you apparently had such a bad experience in Abby, I suggest including some friends in your adventures even if you dont HAVE to have them. It seems like you are actively avoiding interaction with others.

What do you say to the people who enjoy this gameplay? (and here's a hint, we are the majority. And if you dont believe that, ask yourself why these methods were developed in the first place)

I have nothing to say to those who like this type of game play other than don't complain when there are things that take teamwork and detailed "gimmicks" to beat to be made easier so you can win. There can be exactly both types of playing involved in FFXI.

I just hope you don't go into "my money is as good as your money" type rebuttals. I am getting tired of that type of behavior. To the people who argue that they like the easier way of playing I agree with you 100% for it being in game. I just don't agree you should determine everyone as being in that category and make everything else just as easy.

EDIT: You should read the thread about Tanaka's ideas about how FFXI has become because of abyssea. Here is the link :http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...-a-mistake-%29

I think you will find SE cares more about the minority in FFXI since you believe us to be just that.