Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

[Brolic]

I love how everyone just ignores the raw math that Motenten posted which shows how total DPS goes *up* with waiting to skill chain.

Also, let me say it again, anyone that holds TP forever just waiting for their partner to get to 100 TP for a skill chain is guilty of bad playing. You have to know how to play your job well and your SC partner has to know how to play his job well.

That's the problem. Lazy and Easy always trumps Skill.

No quick and efficient trumps everything. the fastest way to kill something is the most skilled.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Skillchains are typically heavily resisted on most stronger mobs, that's why most people ignore SC damage. That's also after SE introduced skillchain bonus traits.

Looking at last pug Idlebrahn the only SC that didn't do insignificant damage was from a Sam and War skillchaining light. And considering the damage done on the highest light, I'm fairly certain it was either double, or the War closed it with Ukko's (4.6k Light).

[Arcon]

I love how everyone just ignores the raw math that Motenten posted which shows how total DPS goes *up* with waiting to skill chain.

No one ignores it, but it's the prime example of a "spherical chicken in a vacuum". It's situational math that ignores many of the very common traps of an EXP party, such as other people having to hold their WS too not to interrupt the SCing parties. Also differing accuracy and multihit variables, which may have the same expected value but increase the variance, which means cases where the two don't line up perfectly are more common. Another factor is TP return after WS, which may place one job ahead of another. Disregarding even the fact that despite x-hit builds it may take people a different amount of time to get to the required TP. What if a SAM uses Meditate? What if Conserve TP kicks in, what if one job makes 50 TP after opening the SC before the other job can even go? And, probably the biggest factor, is that sometimes the best weapon skills don't close required Skillchains. Will you give up Ukko's Fury to close a Darkness Skillchain?

Also, keep in mind that his math was performed with jobs that get a Skillchain bonus.

Skillchains are not rewarding enough to be employed regularly. That's the only reason why people don't do it. Sometimes it actually is rewarding, and that's when people do use it (see my first example, KS99 turtle). But most of the time it's just not worth it, nowhere near it.

[ManaKing]

No one ignores it, but it's the prime example of a "spherical chicken in a vacuum". It's situational math that ignores many of the very common traps of an EXP party, such as other people having to hold their WS too not to interrupt the SCing parties. Also differing accuracy and multihit variables, which may have the same expected value but increase the variance, which means cases where the two don't line up perfectly are more common. Another factor is TP return after WS, which may place one job ahead of another. Disregarding even the fact that despite x-hit builds it may take people a different amount of time to get to the required TP. What if a SAM uses Meditate? What if Conserve TP kicks in, what if one job makes 50 TP after opening the SC before the other job can even go? And, probably the biggest factor, is that sometimes the best weapon skills don't close required Skillchains. Will you give up Ukko's Fury to close a Darkness Skillchain?

Also, keep in mind that his math was performed with jobs that get a Skillchain bonus.

Skillchains are not rewarding enough to be employed regularly. That's the only reason why people don't do it. Sometimes it actually is rewarding, and that's when people do use it (see my first example, KS99 turtle). But most of the time it's just not worth it, nowhere near it.

+1'd and quoted for emphasis.

Arcon is looking at the reality of this situation. There are plenty of reasons that SCs aren't being used right now. The numbers that Motenten gave us are correct, but they apply to jobs that don't have to wait for another person anyways. There is no reason for a SAM, DNC, or BLU to wait on anyone else, currently. They can SSC and make sure it is well timed and that the second WS is the correct WS, because they are the one's doing it.

I'm saying what about the rest of us? What about the people that would like to benefit from SCing and MBing and party play? What can we come up with as a request to SE so that they can put it into the game to make us happy with our future updates?

This doesn't have to be some epic fight to the death over opinions and misunderstandings. The past is the past. It doesn't matter whether or not you think SCs were effective in the past. The point is if you are actually attempting to make this game better than you should be focusing on the present and the future. I only reference the past because my memories of party play in FFXI for the first couple of years are much more positive than they are right now. The reason for that was the emphasis on party Tactics.

If you want SCs to actually be in the game and used, then please contribute ideas instead of turning this into an argument. If everyone agrees that they would like more party play, then start talking about that instead of things that are irrelevant about the past.

I'm still asking for SCs to be put back into end game boss fights. I'm still asking for party play to be integral for SOME boss fights. It doesn't have to be every boss and it doesn't have to be another proc system(I'd prefer if it didn't), it just has to give us more TACTICS that we can use against mobs. Thus why I brought up SC in the Tactics forum, because it used to be a tactic and now it really isn't. I wish that addressed.

[Motenten]

The point of my post was to show that, taken at face value, skillchaining -- including holding TP to skillchain -- is worth it, as it improves overall DPS. That was to counter the argument that skillchaining is not and has never been worthwhile simply due to TP sync issues.

The problem is that we don't get skillchain damage "at face value", except on fairly weak mobs where a skillchain is generally going to be overkill anyway. We instead get heavily crippled skillchain damage on any mob where we'd give serious consideration to using this tactic.

Note: I was -not- talking about self-skillchaining. My numbers were explicitly for someone who had to wait for another DD to reach 100 TP to initiate the skillchain.


There are two changes that are needed for skillchains to be considered useful:

1) Fix the missing log info when you change gear. It's alright if the animation doesn't show (though it would be nice if it did), but the players absolutely need to be able to see the damage done for it to be "real".

2) Adjust the accuracy of the skillchain effect. This is very vague, as we really have no idea what affects the "magic accuracy" of the skillchain damage. I would be inclined to take a page from blue magic and make the accuracy the same as the accuracy of the mainhand weapon that closed the chain, but I have no reference point as to how that would compare to the current system.

The sc accuracy is obviously checked against the mob's magic evasion. We know that mages and cors can do respectable damage with nukes (ie: non-resisted, generally), aside from certain elements on particular mobs, and we know that the magic accuracy available to them is in the same general vicinity as the physical accuracy available to melee. So why is it that the melee's skillchain damage is lucky to break double digits on higher end mobs (the equivalent of a third or fourth tier resist)?

Whatever the cause, it needs fixing.

Those two things are really all that's needed for skillchaining to be a potentially useful tactic in fights. It won't always be useful, but it at least -can- be useful some of the time.

[hiko]

The point of my post was to show that, taken at face value, skillchaining -- including holding TP to skillchain -- is worth it, as it improves overall DPS. That was to counter the argument that skillchaining is not and has never been worthwhile simply due to TP sync issues.

The problem is that we don't get skillchain damage "at face value", except on fairly weak mobs where a skillchain is generally going to be overkill anyway. We instead get heavily crippled skillchain damage on any mob where we'd give serious consideration to using this tactic.

Note: I was -not- talking about self-skillchaining. My numbers were explicitly for someone who had to wait for another DD to reach 100 TP to initiate the skillchain.

another "weak" point of SC overall dmg is you might need to use a subpar WS to make SC

[saevel]

2) Adjust the accuracy of the skillchain effect. This is very vague, as we really have no idea what affects the "magic accuracy" of the skillchain damage. I would be inclined to take a page from blue magic and make the accuracy the same as the accuracy of the mainhand weapon that closed the chain, but I have no reference point as to how that would compare to the current system.

The sc accuracy is obviously checked against the mob's magic evasion. We know that mages and cors can do respectable damage with nukes (ie: non-resisted, generally), aside from certain elements on particular mobs, and we know that the magic accuracy available to them is in the same general vicinity as the physical accuracy available to melee. So why is it that the melee's skillchain damage is lucky to break double digits on higher end mobs (the equivalent of a third or fourth tier resist)?

Whatever the cause, it needs fixing.

SC's don't work due to the timing involved. Two or three people can reasonably coordinate a SC, anymore after that and someone will either be holding TP or interrupting the SC. The magic accuracy used for the SC is the same as what's used for magical WS. The magic accuracy of the closing SC member with their weapon skill used as the base component. Since heavy DD's don't WS with magic accuracy gear on you end up with dicey magic accuracy and thus seemingly random SC values. SC damage should be unresistable flat damage, but it's SE.

[ManaKing]

SC damage should be unresistable flat damage, but it's SE.

Yup and double yup

[Theytak]

SC damage should be unresistable flat damage, but it's SE.

While I agree, even that wouldn't make SCs something other than a hindrance.

[saevel]

While I agree, even that wouldn't make SCs something other than a hindrance.

No but it would reward those who actually work to time their WS's such that they produce SC's. Me and my friends who often low man stuff try to time our WS's to create SC's and double SC's. We're on vent and there's rarely more then three people engaged so it's not difficult, but still we should get more out of it then resisted damage.