Hey remember SC > MB? Make it required.

[ManaKing]

That's you. I have tremendous amounts of fun zerging things. I also prefer to play with my smallish group of friends willingly rather than be forced to accept anyone for an exp party simply because they are the job we need. And Im sorry you apparently had such a bad experience in Abby, I suggest including some friends in your adventures even if you dont HAVE to have them. It seems like you are actively avoiding interaction with others.

What do you say to the people who enjoy this gameplay? (and here's a hint, we are the majority. And if you dont believe that, ask yourself why these methods were developed in the first place)

You completely missed the point. I do things with a group of 5-12 people constantly. I don't mind that people SSC, but what bothers me is that even with all of us on vent and having a good time together, we still don't really ever have a good reason to SC because it can literally slows down the DPS that we do on mobs with decent magical resistance.

I don't dual box because it is as boring as possible, I just said that I can and that nothing would stop me from getting gear. If you want to come up with more party tactics with me in addition to SCs and MBs I would be extremely appreciative. What I am looking for is more party play. I want cooperation that actually wield benefits because it is a more rewarding style of play that is more memorable.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't zerg plenty of content, I'm just saying I'm getting sick of it being the only thing people do because they don't have incentives to make their jobs work together. SE added incentive to zerg a long time ago, but if you look at the empy weapons, they don't do anything to slow the trend down. A bunch of weapons that you can SSC dark or light if you are /SAM. They don't make anything better if you mix them with other people, they don't add anything to cooperative play. These are the pieces of equipment that everyone wants to have for even casual play at this point.

I want large bonuses to SCs that aren't SSC, I want there to be more than just double dark and light as the end result for a coordinated SC, and I want SE to add SCing as a cornerstone of what their next endgame content is so that I can be sure that people actually know what they are doing.

[Shadowsong]

If you want to come up with more party tactics with me in addition to SCs and MBs I would be extremely appreciative. What I am looking for is more party play. I want cooperation that actually wield benefits because it is a more rewarding style of play that is more memorable.

I have paid this company over $1200 so far in my life. THEY make the content, I play it.
I think the discussion would have been more productive if the OP used the terminology you just did.
We should be discussing how to make teamwork and cooperation more rewarding, not how to bring back an atiquated mechanic. That said though, I have no problem with them making SC more viable, and I don't think anyone does :/

edit: An idea could be to make each WS done on a mob throughout a fight weaken it towards further WS from other players. Or make it so certain Job Abilities work better when used in conjunction with others jobs' JA. Just rough ideas off the top of my head, but I think this is an unexplored region mechanics-wise and has a lot of potential.

[ManaKing]

I have paid this company over $1200 so far in my life. THEY make the content, I play it.
I think the discussion would have been more productive if the OP used the terminology you just did.
We should be discussing how to make teamwork and cooperation more rewarding, not how to bring back an atiquated mechanic. That said though, I have no problem with them making SC more viable, and I don't think anyone does :/

edit: An idea could be to make each WS done on a mob throughout a fight weaken it towards further WS from other players. Or make it so certain Job Abilities work better when used in conjunction with others jobs' JA. Just rough ideas off the top of my head, but I think this is an unexplored region mechanics-wise and has a lot of potential.

I am the OP. I brain storm while the topic open because the point of having a forum conversation is so that I can have people come up with things that might not be in line with my original ideas. I don't care if my original point becomes moot over the course of the discussion so long as I am given enough opinions and concerns to warrant it.

I apologize if sometimes my original posts are inflammatory. I generally post when I think of something that doesn't sit right with me, so I am generally very strongly opinionated when I post. The result is that my original post only encompasses what I wanted changed at the time. But as I get more feedback from other people, my opinion can change so long as i see the merit of their opinion.

Motenten has been an amazing source of information on this thread alone. I would completely stand behind anything she (i'm assuming) says because she already understands more of fine details that need to be explored and commented on. Both of her fixes sound completely legitimate and objectively worded. What is SC accuracy based on? I have no idea. Also I would love to know exactly how much damage SCs do every time I do one. While it might not be the fix I wanted at the time I posted, it might be the first step in putting SCs back in the game in a more permanent manner.

[Shadowsong]

"my money is as good as your money argument"? Why would anyone even use that in this case.
First of all, why are we discussing how applicable a mechanic was at the beginning of the game? Who cares what we used to do?
Also, who is complaining when things take teamwork? When teamwork makes me stronger, why would I not want to do it? Why are you creating enemies?

Yes, back when the game first came out people used Skillchains................ until people figured out fighting ITs in exp was retarded. Also, back then we didnt know pDEF/pVIT/ect, parse results, stat caps, detailed DPS calculations, intimate game mechanic knowledge, the importance of Haste and Double Attack, proper sub job combinations, proper food choices, the importance of certain BRD songs over others, pigeonholded utility jobs, you see where I'm going with this?

There is nearly 8 years of game data and information availible to anyone now. Back in the day, you just did whatever your party leader told you to do. And come on, one shotting a robber crab with a Freeze SC seemed pretty badass in 2005. It didn't matter that the crab before that took 5 minutes because you were too scared to use your TP and your BLM was resting MP from constant Ancient Magic.

[Chriscoffey]

"my money is as good as your money argument"? Why would anyone even use that in this case.
First of all, why are we discussing how applicable a mechanic was at the beginning of the game? Who cares what we used to do?
Also, who is complaining when things take teamwork? When teamwork makes me stronger, why would I not want to do it? Why are you creating enemies?

Yes, back when the game first came out people used Skillchains................ until people figured out fighting ITs in exp was retarded. Also, back then we didnt know pDEF/pVIT/ect, parse results, stat caps, detailed DPS calculations, intimate game mechanic knowledge, the importance of Haste and Double Attack, proper sub job combinations, proper food choices, the importance of certain BRD songs over others, pigeonholded utility jobs, you see where I'm going with this?

There is nearly 8 years of game data and information availible to anyone now. Back in the day, you just did whatever your party leader told you to do. And come on, one shotting a robber crab with a Freeze SC seemed pretty badass in 2005. It didn't matter that the crab before that took 5 minutes because you were too scared to use your TP and your BLM was resting MP from constant Ancient Magic.

Therein lies your problem my parties weren't holding TP for long periods because you weren't attacking on melee like a speed demon due to what Theytak mentioned earlier about gear/abilities. This has been said numerous times , however, noone seems to understand this but older players. The players stating people were holding TP forever are the same ones that never detail their rebuttal proving otherwise.

I know a few times some jobs were holding TP but it wasn't for long maybe 1-3 rounds and as mentioned before you still were doing damage. The end result was better MB damage which more than compensated the alliance with better damage boost. I know way more than i know now but that still doesn't change the simple fact GEAR OR ABILITIES TO ZERG WASN'T READILY AVAILABLE FOR YEARS like it is today.

[Theytak]

Zergs started making their way in to exp in late '05, after the fall of Rng. Everyone who jumped off the rng bandwagon suddenly had to go back to the non-rng style of WS WS SC MB and found it to be incredibly slow. I remember the first time I had a non-SC party, around 65 in bibiki bay. I had just started doing Dragon Kick to open for light in my previous party, so I was expecting as much this time around, but instead I was met with "Nah, just go balls to the wall and ws when you get TP". Totally blew my mind, but it was a lot less stressful. By the time I hit 75 it had caught on as the more popular method for exp, though SCs were still fairly common (this was just after ToAU came out).

Zergs in End Game are totally different though, and are something that requires a lot more work and preparation than you guys give them credit. No way in fuck could Joe-shmoe AH Melee walk in to a zerg and be of ANY benefit. The reason they hadn't been used before they were was because they weren't even POSSIBLE before. Hitting the haste cap was a pipe-dream for some jobs, and utterly impossible for the rest, due to the relatively limited gear selections at the time. After ToAU came out and made haste gear somewhat more readily available to the stronger zerg jobs, and we got Cat 2 merits, and such, mages started being more well informed about their abilities, people started getting bored of the old slow fights and decided to experiment, and found something that worked.

Don't you remember how unbelievable it was the first time you heard about someone zerging kirin in under 2 minutes? I thought it was a hoax. Then I saw the video and shat myself, lol. Then other groups tried to copy this strategy, and failed miserably. The vast majority couldn't do it, because they didn't have the gear and experience to pull it off.

Fast forward to today and zerg strats are fairly common and easy to pull off due to the higher levels and better availability of gear.

Personally, I enjoy both styles; long and drawn out fights where you slowly whittle down the NM while trying not to be annihilated, and also NMs where everyone just fucking goes apeshit after getting every maxed out buff possible and trying to kill the fucker as fast as humanly possible because any other strategy just doesn't work due to how insanely obnoxious the NMs TP moves are or due to time restraints, examples being Dynamis Lord before the overhaul, and pretty much every boss in Einherjar.

[Chriscoffey]

Zergs started making their way in to exp in late '05, after the fall of Rng. Everyone who jumped off the rng bandwagon suddenly had to go back to the non-rng style of WS WS SC MB and found it to be incredibly slow. I remember the first time I had a non-SC party, around 65 in bibiki bay. I had just started doing Dragon Kick to open for light in my previous party, so I was expecting as much this time around, but instead I was met with "Nah, just go balls to the wall and ws when you get TP". Totally blew my mind, but it was a lot less stressful. By the time I hit 75 it had caught on as the more popular method for exp, though SCs were still fairly common (this was just after ToAU came out).

Zergs in End Game are totally different though, and are something that requires a lot more work and preparation than you guys give them credit. No way in fuck could Joe-shmoe AH Melee walk in to a zerg and be of ANY benefit. The reason they hadn't been used before they were was because they weren't even POSSIBLE before. Hitting the haste cap was a pipe-dream for some jobs, and utterly impossible for the rest, due to the relatively limited gear selections at the time. After ToAU came out and made haste gear somewhat more readily available to the stronger zerg jobs, and we got Cat 2 merits, and such, mages started being more well informed about their abilities, people started getting bored of the old slow fights and decided to experiment, and found something that worked.

Don't you remember how unbelievable it was the first time you heard about someone zerging kirin in under 2 minutes? I thought it was a hoax. Then I saw the video and shat myself, lol. Then other groups tried to copy this strategy, and failed miserably. The vast majority couldn't do it, because they didn't have the gear and experience to pull it off.

Fast forward to today and zerg strats are fairly common and easy to pull off due to the higher levels and better availability of gear.

Personally, I enjoy both styles; long and drawn out fights where you slowly whittle down the NM while trying not to be annihilated, and also NMs where everyone just fucking goes apeshit after getting every maxed out buff possible and trying to kill the fucker as fast as humanly possible because any other strategy just doesn't work due to how insanely obnoxious the NMs TP moves are or due to time restraints, examples being Dynamis Lord before the overhaul, and pretty much every boss in Einherjar.

I would bet people still argue against this being true(without examples of course) and this is 100% to the forefront of why we could use SC(or variation) again due to everyone being on the zerg bandwagon.

[Shinzonx]

I was refering to the main poster saying make people download skype vent or w/e most people dont like those programs and some can mess up your pc i dont like to have to click from one screen to another to talk through a mic when i can just type what i want to say dont want to read stop being lazy

[Theytak]

I was refering to the main poster saying make people download skype vent or w/e most people dont like those programs and some can mess up your pc i dont like to have to click from one screen to another to talk through a mic when i can just type what i want to say dont want to read stop being lazy

the only way a voice chat program would mess up your PC is if you were stupid enough to not pay attention to where you download it from, or if you some how manage to go out of your way to accidentally sabotage it.... Also it's not even remotely fair to call using voice chat over text chat lazy when voice chat is faster, clearer, and makes organizing strategy 100x easier. It has nothing to do with not wanting to read, and everything to do with the fact that people can talk and react to a volatile situation 10x faster over voice chat due to the way the human brain works. I mean if you're deaf or a robot, I could understand, but otherwise it'll always be better to be able to hit 1 extra button while trying to save someone's ass to tell people what your'e doing than trying to do it while typing it out and thus hindering your ability to do your job properly, or not saying anything and hindering communication.

If anything I want to ask you to stop being lazy and learn the definition of a run on sentence... or learn how to use some punctuation.

[Sappho]

I love how everyone just ignores the raw math that Motenten posted which shows how total DPS goes *up* with waiting to skill chain.

Also, let me say it again, anyone that holds TP forever just waiting for their partner to get to 100 TP for a skill chain is guilty of bad playing. You have to know how to play your job well and your SC partner has to know how to play his job well.

That's the problem. Lazy and Easy always trumps Skill.