Samurai as intended

[Elanabelle]

SAM/WAR can tank just fine, but really only shines as a tank when you merit Third Eye recast and your Parrying Skill reaches its maximum. Unfortunately, people are often unable to think outside the box, and they always merit only Meditate and Store TP on SAM. Also, skilling-up Parrying Skill is a pain in the butt, and (unless I've not caught on to an efficient way to skill it up) laboriously slow.
If you have tons of support as a SAM tank, just use Hasso and damage-deal like an animal in-between Provokes. If you lack for support, use Seigan/Third Eye, and swap-in Damage-reduction equipment when your Third Eye drops.

Ninja is still likely to always be a better tank if the mob uses single-target nukes and/or multiple Utsusemi shadows are able to block some of the mob's nastier TP moves. You could do SAM/NIN, but that's a subpar job combination in my opinion. Having either Hasso or Seigan up will gimp your recast timers on Utsusemi,. Your damage output is gimped on SAM/NIN by lacking Berserk, Warcry, and Attack Bonus. Also, NIN simply gets more shadows per cast.

Bottom line, SAM can definitely tank, but it's typically not the best option. Personally, I think it's best to carry your tanking equipment on SAM at all times, just in case it's needed. However, despite my preparedness, I don't actually end up tanking on SAM very often. If you want to tank "right" on SAM, as I stated before, you gotta level up Parrying Skill and merit Third Eye, in my opinion.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Parrying is floored against most VT mobs, or pretty much close to it... TE merits lost a lot of luster after seigan's introduction.

[Alderin]

What are you talking about, I have accidently tanked a handful of NM's on RNG/SAM due to overaggro with ws spam (in abyssea). I can only imagine the abilities SAM main has..

@Tamoa - Your kidding yourself if you think SAM has a better survival rate to NIN. Utsusemi > Third Eye - Shadows block single target spells, Third Eye doesn't. That is one small example - not to mention NIN gets 9 shadows every 30 seconds. SAM gets lucky if they get 3-4. not to mention NIN's A- Evasion skill in comparison to SAM's B+. Sure gear can even that out - but why would you stack evasion when a job doesn't need to due to natural skill.

As for PDT/MDT- gear, if you actually need to (which you don't really, due to the use of shadows) you can get just as much PDT/MDT on NIN as you can on SAM.

SAM is a better DD outside abyssea then NIN. NIN (in voidwatch) is quite a useless tank against NM's that matter (ie. Voidwatch).

Leave the NIN's and MNK's to shine in abyssea, let the PLD's tank in VW, and let SAM be played how it has been played for 5 years - DD.

As for NIN's "Designed as a DD" theory - I agree with JRoc. That is rubbish. NIN was a supportive role similar to RDM. Debuff, elemental wheel, & shadows so it didn't get 1-shot if it somehow pulled hate. A Ninja is an assassin by history. They were trained to sneak around, kill the target and escape. Not stand there with guns (or shirukens) blazing and kill everything.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What are you fighting that still uses only single target spells?

Third eye completely negates multihit Tp moves, Utsusemei doesn't. It also doesn't get wiped by AoE magic.

[Alderin]

What are you fighting that still uses only single target spells?

Third eye completely negates multihit Tp moves, Utsusemei doesn't. It also doesn't get wiped by AoE magic.

Hmmm if I recall correctly - even Aello still uses single target from time to time. That is just one small example of the list that is waist deep.

Third eye negates multi-hit TP yes - but are you blind? Unless a multi-hit does more then 4-5 hits - utsusemi negates it as well ! Funny that. 99% of them at least.

As for not getting wiped with AoE - this is true, but once again - it doesn't stop Magic from getting through! So kind of a mute point to be honest. A well geared / skilled Ninja will *NOT* have shadows down unless they were stripped by an AOE or simply lasted the 5 hits - oh wait Utsusemi: Ni is back up!

I good NIN would be able to tell you that they barely have to even use :Ichi because their 5 shadows will last them the 25 second recast timer. Ichi is purely a backup, and barely actually used.

As for Third eye - you could be really unlucky and get it stripped off you in 2 hits. That's too bad - now your standing there blood tanking something for another 25 seconds..

This is also not forgetting Migawari when the circumstance arises.

As for solo play (which the point here is survivability - so it was bound to be brought up), NIN/DNC is far more superior to SAM/DNC in every way. I would love to watch a SAM solo a mob even as easy as Briareas on SAM/DNC.

One last point I will make - a mob is at 5% and you need to hold it for whatever reason.. SAM's back tanking skill is totally rubbish. A few hits and your blood tanking for another 20 seconds - with no ability to parry or counter. NIN? That's not an issue - you have 9 shadows each with a 25 sec recast (with good gear & basic spell haste).

Does NIN have weaknesses? Sure, AOE spells, MNK mobs that counter and rip shadows fast (due to dual wield hit rate), mob's elemental spikes (due to dual wield hit rate). Can SAM tank? Sure, in some cases. More survivability then NIN? No

[Neisan_Quetz]

I said only single target, not also single target.

SE+TE can completely negate multiple attacks (30+) in rapid succession, utsu doesn't come close in such a situation (HF for example)

You have to be beyond unlucky for a fresh TE to vanish after 2 hits. I've almost never seen it on Sam main and usually see it on rare occasions /Sam.

Both that their benefits but for most 2hDD /Sam > /nin for damage mitigation.

Having greater damage mitigation doesn't matter as long as you don't die, that's why Pld tanking has fallen out of favor.

[Alderin]

I said only single target, not also single target.

SE+TE can completely negate multiple attacks (30+) in rapid succession, utsu doesn't come close in such a situation (HF for example)

You have to be beyond unlucky for a fresh TE to vanish after 2 hits. I've almost never seen it on Sam main and usually see it on rare occasions /Sam.

Both that their benefits but for most 2hDD /Sam > /nin for damage mitigation.

Having greater damage mitigation doesn't matter as long as you don't die, that's why Pld tanking has fallen out of favor.

Also / Only... irrelivent. That single target nuke is going to hit a SAM harder then it will hit a NIN (which isn't at all) providing they are well geared & skilled. Unless a mob chainspells - or for some unlucky reason you cannot cast Ni inbetween, a NIN will *NOT* get hit by a single target spell. (once again, providing they have a brain).

As for negate multiple attacks - yes, NIN also has a JA for that - it's a thing called Issekigan and more then terrible Parry skill. If you have been a NIN for a long time - your parry will be nearly or should be capped.

Beyond unlucky? No. Unlucky? Yes. It happens.

I will agree, for 2hDD /SAM > /NIN but we aren't talking about subjobs here. If I recall correctly, this whole thread has been about SAM being about to tank, not WAR/SAM, DRK/SAM, hell even RNG/SAM.. Yes Seigan > Third Eye is more effective then shadows but once again - this isn't a topic of subjobs, it is SAM main's ability to tank. While it exists, I'm sorry, you are kidding yourself if you think SAM is more efficient at damage mitigation then NIN.

PLD tanking is not out of favour. Hmm Voidwatch mean anything to you? If you're not a PLD and want to tank, you can go home. If I recall this original topic was originally brought up regarding stuff outside Abyssea.

I will paint it black and blue for you... NIN/WAR > SAM/Anything for any and all tanking task. I have seen Voidwatch adds eat a SAM alive, yet a NIN can stand there and hold it for the whole fight with very minimal support.

[Dragonlord]

SE+TE can completely negate multiple attacks (30+) in rapid succession, utsu doesn't come close in such a situation (HF for example)

You have to be beyond unlucky for a fresh TE to vanish after 2 hits. I've almost never seen it on Sam main and usually see it on rare occasions /Sam.

Both that their benefits but for most 2hDD /Sam > /nin for damage mitigation.

30+? I've barely ever seen 5 anticipates proc when /sam. That is simply a totally unrealistic number. Also, TE is on a 30 second timer that can't be reduced by haste/fast cast. Utsu has 2 spells each giving 3(more when main nin) shadows who's timer can be reduced to half. I'm not saying DDs should cast utsu:ichi, but claiming TE is better than shadows because it *can* block more hits on rare occasions is a bad example.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Multiple mobs/HF, I've seen a pic of it somewhere.

Pld tank isn't necessary for good VW groups. Of course if you only do pickups get a prd tank.

Parry Skill wut, Sam has A- parry... same as Nin main..

Sam doesn't have to be more efficient at damage mitigation to be a better tank than Nin. Pld is the most efficient Tank for damage mitigation and look how popular that is for good groups.

[Alderin]

Multiple mobs/HF, I've seen a pic of it somewhere.

Pld tank isn't necessary for good VW groups. Of course if you only do pickups get a prd tank.

Parry Skill wut, Sam has A- parry... same as Nin main..

Sam doesn't have to be more efficient at damage mitigation to be a better tank than Nin. Pld is the most efficient Tank for damage mitigation and look how popular that is for good groups.

You obviously don't read.

But yes I would love to see this screenshot of mitigating 30+ attacks.. try 6-7 if you are amazingly lucky.

Aello? Uptala? Pil? Sorry but unless your just spamming the proc once and zerg til it's dead method (while capping red as fast as you can before everyone dies) - you're going to need a PLD. If not for the main, you will need to hold the adds in zilart. MOST voidwatch groups will epicly fail without a PLD.

Parry Skill wut, Sam has A- parry... same as Nin main..

Issekigan.... Issekigan....Issekigan... Should I say again? Issekigan. Hell I will even quote it.

yes, NIN also has a JA for that - it's a thing called Issekigan and more then terrible Parry skill. (which does not mean "nin has A-" it means that a skilled/not-gimped ninja who has skilled parry)

Yes SAM & NIN have equal parry skill. Never brought that up or denied that fact. However with capped parry skill, and this JA active - you parry more then you lose a shadow on half the mobs. If we are talking about "hundred fist" (so I am assuming a mob like Chloris yeah? since nothing harder uses HF at the moment). I can 100% guarentee that your third eye will be down before my 5 shadows from Ni will be with this JA (ill quote again - Issekigan) on a NM like Chloris.

Sam doesn't have to be more efficient at damage mitigation to be a better tank than Nin. Pld is the most efficient Tank for damage mitigation and look how popular that is for good groups.

"Good groups" in voidwatch use a well rounded party, with solid damage, widespread list of procs, and the most efficient TANK when it comes to damage mitigation (ie. a PLD). One PLD opens up a lot of slots that you would otherwise have to use healers / refreshers. Btw - temp item spamming isn't tanking.


Look I will put it down to this...
Let's remove subjobs for a second.. Forget about them for one minute... You also don't have a WHM.. Bare basics - who will be able to survive the longest out of a PLD/0, NIN/0, SAM/0 on a standard DC-T mob. No complex variables here. Lets assume this mob has 9999999HP for argument's sake, so it will last as long as the job can stay alive.. Assume all jobs are well geared. The mob is a standard mob, melee's once per attack round, sometimes DA, throws the odd nuke, -ga... whatever. Standard mob.

The order will be PLD > NIN > SAM.

-A skilled PLD could stand there and watch the mob melee keeping themselves alive forever - assumably.
-A skilled NIN will not get hit by melee. Not get hit by single target spells. Not get hit by a standard TP moves. Only a random -ga spell can effectively hurt them, if you make full use of NIN's JA's and debuffs.
-A SAM will use Seigan > TE, get hit every 4-5 hits (to be generous to the SAM, try every 3), will eat single target spells, will eat -ga spells.

No. A SAM has much less survivability then a NIN.

Going to bed. enjoy.