New Weapon Skill Extenterator (Dagger) for Puppetmaster.

[Spiritreaver]

Sorry. Hopefully I can atone for all my mis-spelling, but I was a bit tired and just wanted to get the point across and go to bed. Anyhow, Puppetmaster does get Aeolian "Edge". I've had it for a while now, and if you don't believe I'm correct then please do look into it. Also comparing this weapon skill to Summoner getting Ukko's Fury is a bit of a over exaggeration when taking into consideration the fact that we actually have skill in the given weapon and it wouldn't be game breaking. I completely agree that this weapon skill truely isn't necessary, but I believe, at this point, getting anything added to puppetmaster would be only an asset to us rather than a fall back (Unless the add another bug to the Automaton lol). And yes, I realise that M-Kris is a Lv. 50 weapon, but my point of stating this was with the concept that if we have dagger skill and actual feasable weapons that could deal out a good amount of damage, we might as well take advantage.

Figured as much about you being sleepy or something, some of us got your point.

Gotta say though, 'just because' just doesn't seem reason enough for PUP to be added to this WS. Brings to mind the whole Asuran Fists for PUP argument imo.

[Shinron-PUP]

I agree, and now that you mention asuran fists, I almost lose all hope that this weapon skill will be added lol. Square Enix is notorious for neglecting our "wants" when it comes to Puppetmaster. Anyhow, Shijin Spiral is seemingly becoming unimpressive, expecially when using Verethragna. It rarely exceeds damage of Stringing Pummel, and does not do light/dark skillchains with our automaton, or with itself, incomparison to victory smite; therefore, Extenterator might be a blessing although it probably won't rival any damage of a H2H weaponskill.

Also, thanks for having my back Spiritreaver >.>. I was getting butchered... wish I would have known I made so many mistakes earlier ^.^b.

[Alhanelem]

Alhanelem, keep in mind that pup's h2h and dagger were originally the same rating, or very close to same rating. So who knows what SE was thinking there.

They were never the same rating, and PUP was specifically described as using hand to hand, which is why hand to hand's skill was raised and daggers' was not.

PUP HTH was C+ and later raised to B+
PUP dagger is C-

[Dfoley]

Sorry. Hopefully I can atone for all my mis-spelling, but I was a bit tired and just wanted to get the point across and go to bed. Anyhow, Puppetmaster does get Aeolian "Edge". I've had it for a while now, and if you don't believe I'm correct then please do look into it. Also comparing this weapon skill to Summoner getting Ukko's Fury is a bit of a over exaggeration when taking into consideration the fact that we actually have skill in the given weapon and it wouldn't be game breaking. I completely agree that this weapon skill truely isn't necessary, but I believe, at this point, getting anything added to puppetmaster would be only an asset to us rather than a fall back (Unless the add another bug to the Automaton lol). And yes, I realise that M-Kris is a Lv. 50 weapon, but my point of stating this was with the concept that if we have dagger skill and actual feasable weapons that could deal out a good amount of damage, we might as well take advantage.

Tired and typos aside you dont have a valid point, and that is the biggest issue.

1) Pup does not get aeolian edge, i have looked into it, and pup natively only gets wasp sting, shadow stich, gust slash, and energy steal. If you have aeolian edge, it is due to subing nin or dnc (common among pups who dont have a perma whitemage). However I always run pup/war for 99% of the things i do and I am looking right at my ws screen atm and there is no aeolian edge.

2) This really is no different then the level 71 ws. EG Evisceration, another dagger ws pup does not get. "While other jobs can obtain the required 230 Dagger skill, they will be unable to use Evisceration."

3) Daggers are pathetic damage. There is no such thing as a decent DD (any job) using daggers. My pup will do 2-3x the damage of my theif any day of the week. Average hits in the 150 range, crits for 250-350.... vs average hits in the 67-110 range, crits for 150-200. On top of that, we would have to sub nin for dual wield and use inferior daggers. Pup does not get access to magian trials of the dagger, we dont get access to any good DD dagger other than yahtangas and those are pathetic.

The rest of arcons post may have been over the top (smn with ukkos) but hes actually the one making a valid argument here. No other job with C- weapon skill gets access to any of the lvl 96 skills, so there is no reason to make an exception for a job that doesnt get access to the magian or lvl 71 ws quest.

[Shinron-PUP]

I didn't mean the weapon skill was attainable by the job naturally, but by having the sub (Ninja is what I typically use). Arcon's post was correct and brings up more points that comfirm the fact why the weapon skill shouldn't be added rather than be added. Quite frankly, this post wasn't meant more than to put the idea out into the public because I would enjoy seeing a new weapon style. It always seemed to me that a hand to hand styled weapon was a bit just thrown in there... It stylistically doesn't even seem like a weapon a true Puppetmaster would use. In FF10 Lulu was a blackmage that used a Puppet to fight. I always imagined our puppets would be the attackers/tankers and we would be the support through healing/magic/ etc. but those roles are a bit reversed, so sorry if I come off as being random but it's inherent in me to want to deviate from hand-to-hands because they just don't seem correct to the job.

Now I will say, on the other hand, I would rather everything be kept as hand-to-hand because I prefer the fact that the Automaton vs. the Master's use in battle is about a 50%-50% ratio instead of how Dragoon is about a 25% (Dragon)-75% (Master) ratio, beastmaster is a 60% (Pet) - 40% (Master) ratio and Summoner is a 80% (Pet) - 20% (master) Ratio. This meer fact that we're 50-50 makes the job extremely versatile because the Master and Automaton can switch places in battle. The purpose of me stating this , though, is because since the aspect of Puppetmaster is so focused on being versatile (Where we have BLM when magic damage is necessary, Paladin when tanking, RNG when physical dmg, etc. etc.), we should add to that versatility by also having expertise in the skill of Dagger. I already knew this would be a debatable post, but please take into consideration where I coming from. Having this dagger skill to accompany hand-to-hand could also be situational when piercing is necessary, or even something as simple as procing if Square Enix intends to further add more "Proc Systems" in the game.

I wouldn't mind if this post was completely disregarded, but it is necessary that someone, at the least, is brave enough to post something completely abstract because you never know how good of an impact it could make on the job...

[Alhanelem]

There is no such thing as a decent DD (any job) using daggers. My pup will do 2-3x the damage of my theif any day of the week

Though PUP should never use daggers, I gotta stop you there. If you're so handily outdamaging a THF or a DNC set up to do damage, then your thief sucks and anyone you're doing 2-3x the damage of is also sucking.

[Spiritreaver]

I didn't mean the weapon skill was attainable by the job naturally, but by having the sub (Ninja is what I typically use). Arcon's post was correct and brings up more points that comfirm the fact why the weapon skill shouldn't be added rather than be added. Quite frankly, this post wasn't meant more than to put the idea out into the public because I would enjoy seeing a new weapon style. 1)It always seemed to me that a hand to hand styled weapon was a bit just thrown in there... It stylistically doesn't even seem like a weapon a true Puppetmaster would use. In FF10 Lulu was a blackmage that used a Puppet to fight. 2)I always imagined our puppets would be the attackers/tankers and we would be the support through healing/magic/ etc. but those roles are a bit reversed, so sorry if I come off as being random but it's inherent in me to want to deviate from hand-to-hands because they just don't seem correct to the job.

3)Now I will say, on the other hand, I would rather everything be kept as hand-to-hand because I prefer the fact that the Automaton vs. the Master's use in battle is about a 50%-50% ratio instead of how Dragoon is about a 25% (Dragon)-75% (Master) ratio, beastmaster is a 60% (Pet) - 40% (Master) ratio and Summoner is a 80% (Pet) - 20% (master) Ratio. This meer fact that we're 50-50 makes the job extremely versatile because the Master and Automaton can switch places in battle. The purpose of me stating this , though, is because since the aspect of Puppetmaster is so focused on being versatile (Where we have BLM when magic damage is necessary, Paladin when tanking, RNG when physical dmg, etc. etc.), we should add to that versatility by also having expertise in the skill of Dagger. I already knew this would be a debatable post, but please take into consideration where I coming from. 4)Having this dagger skill to accompany hand-to-hand could also be situational when piercing is necessary, or even something as simple as procing if Square Enix intends to further add more "Proc Systems" in the game.

5)I wouldn't mind if this post was completely disregarded, but it is necessary that someone, at the least, is brave enough to post something completely abstract because you never know how good of an impact it could make on the job...

@1-What was thrown in was the skill rating SE gave PUP at its onset. HTH as a weapon type is actually pretty nice imo. Now that we have a better rating, i really have to stretch to think of any other weapon PUP should have gotten as its main weapon.

@2-That is what SE seemed to have in mind at first. And my god am i glad that eventually even the devs saw that wasn't gonna work and started to finally add PUP to DD gear 75+. Now you can still pop into mage set in some situations, but again thank god those aren't the norm.

@3-I'd say the pet/master dmg ratio results in a more dynamic job than a versatile one in PUPs case actually. If you are like me and end up in a hybrid role alot, its 100%master/ 0%pet; as i usually have Soulsoother out. And i know others ingame that play completely different from me.

@4-If piercing dmg is needed, really i'd say a quick respec of the auto into a Sharphot config would be the way to go. And if the master needed to jump in as well, then there are Birdbanes and that NM is never camped.

@5-Brave i'll give ya, abstract not so much. Alot of what you are saying is stuff that after really playing the job for a while just answers itself. Or After a bit you just say, 'Oh that's just not a feasible thing to do in this situation'.

Daggers are a good solid weapon type. But PUP lacks a few things that would make them feasible for us to use; the SA/TA that THFs get, the sheer attack speed of DNC, or the increased atk/acc of better skill that both mentioned jobs have over PUP.

Anyways, just wanted to speak at those points. Sorry if this post is late, got interrupted halfway through typing it.

[Dfoley]

Though PUP should never use daggers, I gotta stop you there. If you're so handily outdamaging a THF or a DNC set up to do damage, then your thief sucks and anyone you're doing 2-3x the damage of is also sucking.

Well at 99 thf is looking at
73 minimum dly with weapon dmg averaging 45x2 (30% faster than h2h 45% less dmg)

versus pup
106 minimum dly with weapon dmg averaging 80~83 x2

If your pup isnt doing more dmg then a thf, then the pup isnt gearing correctly.... Considering pup has better ws, higher base dmg by almost double, and has a pet that on top of everything adds even more dmg, (not to mention the WS are just as powerful if not more so than any thf ws)

[Arcon]

Well at 99 thf is looking at
73 minimum dly with weapon dmg averaging 45x2 (30% faster than h2h 45% less dmg)

versus pup
106 minimum dly with weapon dmg averaging 80~83 x2

80 base damage for PUP? Sure, with Kenkonken/Vere, but then you also gotta take THF's best weapons into account (55 each). Then we're at 753 dps on THF (per hand) and 756 dps on PUP (also per hand). You also need to take into account such petty stuff like Triple Attack (10% rate), Critical Atk. Bonus (14%) and higher skill and DEX, so higher Attack, Accuracy and Critical Hit Rate. Then there's things like SA/TA/AC. And this is just straight job ability/trait comparison.

But guess what, no, I'm not saying THF is a better DD than PUP. And, for that matter, Alhanelem didn't say that either. PUP still has its automaton, which can do some decent damage (as long as the Haste values don't get too high), and Victory Smite beats all THF WS (Stringing Pummel is also better than most). All we're saying is that PUP can't pull up to 3x a THF's damage without the THF sucking royally.

[Dfoley]

Well i said 2-3x not 3x. And you are already admitting that dps per hand is > on pup than thf. Add in our pets as is and its pretty darn close to 2x. Add in our pets post pupdate, and its closer to 3x. And I will let it slide that i was assuming level 90 empyerian on pup and 90 emp dagger + non-emp dagger for thf (avging down to 45 per hand 50 main 40 for off hand)

My original point was that daggers aren't a dd weapon like hand 2 hand, specially on pup who has c- skill, no native ws's, no native dual wield or access to much dual wield gear. All i said from there was even thf (arguably the best dagger user) cant even out DD a pup using h2h.

And as long as your aren't lololdschool and count the pet dmg as part of the masters it really isn't an argument.