Personal temper findings

[Byrth]

well, my guess, is that a base stat could possibly affect how your DA effects Ramp up that's the only explanation for the large difference were seeing between our numbers

It could be, but Stoneskin is the only enhancing magic known to be related to a base stat thus far.
* I lost 10 MND and 5 INT going from 471 skill (17%) to 435 skill (13%).
* Then I lost a further 13 MND going from 435 skill (13%) to 410 skill (12%).
So if it's MND related, the effect is pretty weak and/or not there.

Also, your values and mine don't necessarily disagree. The closest to disagreeing we are is at your 402 sample, and my going from 404 to 410 and seeing +2% DA rate shows that area is kind of weird. Also, it's good to keep in mind that the confidence intervals with your sample sizes are a little too large to draw strong conclusions from.

[hideka]

one thing that bothers me, is that my projected outcome for Max skill DA rates are identical to his max skill outcome rates, but none of our lower Skill tiers match up... this indicates that the .125 DA per point of skill over 400 might be correct and for some reason our %'s arent matching up for some odd reason...

.125* 43 = (5.375 + 11.63) = (17.005%) double attack.

( the 11.63 was the ammount of DA i was pulling down at 429 Skill, the 43 Represented the skill i was missing to cap)

[Kitkat]

Hmm, from my personal testing/comparison of war DA vs Blu DA (or rather a confirmation that war da is in fact 10% within a .05% error range vs blu's 7%) brings me to a conclusion that Hideka's sample is too small. I recall that 10% DA had an error variance of 2-3% in the 500-700 range, and a 1-2% in the 700-1000 range, that didn't display correctly until past the 1000 rounds mark. This would go a long way in explaining the variance of Hideka's numbers to Byrth's numbers since his are >1000 compared to Hideka's 500~550 range.

[Seriha]

Not sure if it'll help much since they're lowish side for samples, but I did these shortly after they seemed to add scaling to Temper on the test server.

Did some plodding on the Test Server curious to see if things had changed. My targets were Glen Crabs in Grauberg[A]. I did 2 sets of 10 mobs, first full-timing Enhancing gear, second in melee gear with no other DA sources on. I was RDM/BLM, so no DA trait there.

Temper: 459 Enhancing full-timed.

Crab 01: 6/34 = 17.6%
Crab 02: 4/34 = 11.7%
Crab 03: 6/30 = 20.0%
Crab 04: 5/39 = 12.8%
Crab 05: 6/35 = 18.1%
Crab 06: 4/41 = 09.7%
Crab 07: 3/35 = 08.5%
Crab 08: 1/35 = 02.8%
Crab 09: 4/31 = 12.9%
Crab 10: 7/45 = 15.5%

Total: 46/359 = 12.8%


Temper: 459 Enhancing on-cast, 392 on-strike.

Crab 01: 5/36 = 13.8%
Crab 02: 5/45 = 11.1%
Crab 03: 6/41 = 14.6%
Crab 04: 4/41 = 09.7%
Crab 05: 5/43 = 11.6%
Crab 06: 8/46 = 17.3%
Crab 07: 7/48 = 14.5%
Crab 08: 7/30 = 23.3%
Crab 09: 6/44 = 13.6%
Crab 10: 4/42 = 09.5%

Total: 57/416 = 13.7%

Inclined to say the spell's improved, and that its potency is hopefully determined on-cast as opposed to on-strike. If we want to assume that and combine the two tallies, 13.29% would be the current estimated proc rate at 459 skill.

[saevel]

I'm just surprised they even allowed someone to post anything at all in the temper section without inspiring a flame war about "death to lolMeleeRDM".

[Ketaru]

I'm just surprised they even allowed someone to post anything at all in the temper section without inspiring a flame war about "death to lolMeleeRDM".

It's a subject worth talking about if people would just let go of all the emotional baggage behind it. In a perfect world, it would just be an accepted fact that meleeing on RDM is just not optimal for higher tier content. For lower tier and probably most mid tier level content, it could possibly be done as long as it's not to detrimental of the task at hand. Even better if you can demonstrate you actually can produce meaningful numbers.

"With all those disclaimers out of the way, let's talk about how good Temper actually is."

It might seem like a shame that such disclaimers need to be said at all, but we don't play in a perfect world. The Vana'diel we play in is a nightmare where I'm joining an EXP party to skillup Axe and get some cruor and merits. And this RDM/DNC (hee haw!) comes along and joins the group with his 2 totally awesome augmented Firmaments. He casts random spells out in the middle of nowhere, aggroing dolls, and dying an unmourned death in a style reminiscent of the Mass Production Evas disembowling Unit 2. Thus, the emotional baggage...

But that doesn't mean that, just because some of us believe backline is more optimal, we can't be bothered to find out what the options are for frontlining as well.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Byrth and Septimus maintain the wiki iirc and neither will let that fly for a second (regardless of personal opinions about Rdms and meleeing).

Actually, it's nice to know it stacks with the trait unlike how Saber dance apparently behaves, but there isn't enough incentive to /war and lose out on dual wield if you came to melee.

[Byrth]

It's all no problem. Because the method lets me collect data while afk, it doesn't cost me anything. I put on a certain amount of enhancing gear and go to work. I come back and put on a different amount of enhancing gear while I continue to work at home. I put on a different amount of enhancing gear before I go to bed. etc.

I just wish my damned display driver wouldn't randomly crash me out of FFXI.

[saevel]

It's a subject worth talking about if people would just let go of all the emotional baggage behind it. In a perfect world, it would just be an accepted fact that meleeing on RDM is just not optimal for higher tier content. For lower tier and probably most mid tier level content, it could possibly be done as long as it's not to detrimental of the task at hand. Even better if you can demonstrate you actually can produce meaningful numbers.

And thus you've proven that your part of the problem. You have reached a conclusion without actually quantifying it. I've demonstrated, multiple times over the past four years that RDM could melee perfectly fine in "high tier content". And WTF is that supposed to mean, you can define anything as "high tier content". You can define old style XP parties, dynamis, einerjar, limbus, ground kings, sky NMs, sea boss's, nyzule isle or even salvage as "high tier content". You can define anything in abyssea, or anything in voidwatch as "high tier content". The only thing that escapes that label is soloing bunnies somewhere.

Define a specify exactly what you mean, exactly which situations and be specific in which duties your assigned and expected to perform. Words like "supporting" and "enfeebling" get thrown around a lot yet are never actually quantified. "Supporting" ~ALWAYS~ ends up being "Cure IV, Cure IV, haste, Cure IV Cure IV". And "enfeebling" is ... para... ohh wait ... slow II ... sure why not .. umm ... silen ... damn ... bin.. damn it again ... GRAVITY II ... ohh sh!t. So exactly what else, other then playing WHM-2 are you supposed to be doing with your time again?

[Ketaru]

Hey, no need to get all mad that I'm dealing in absolutes when it seems to be you who doesn't let your definitions evolve along with the game. No. I would not consider a lot of that old content to be higher tier content anymore. And I'm sure, if you have a really competent group backing you up, they can allow you to indulge in your desire to melee. But don't trick yourself into thinking it's anything more than an indulgence.

I'm not going to bother defining what "Supporting" and "enfeebling" mean. But it certainly doesn't mean getting up in the mob's face and swinging your sword. Because if that's what it is, the sad fact is that you're not needed there on RDM. Better to be WHM-2 than yet another frontliner that needs to be supported.